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Thread: Zhongzhou cream

  1. #71
    Senior Member Brady Barrows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubydo1 View Post
    Any updates on using this cream my chin is still itchy and burning a little but kind feels like itís got menthol on if you know what I mean still putting a bit of moisturiser on first. Before applying a thin layer of watered down cream.
    Any updates ?
    The ZZ cream does contain menthol. I particularly like the cool menthol effect of the ZZ cream. My recommendation is to rinse your face with just water before applying the ZZ cream at night without applying the moisturizer first, just the ZZ cream (if you must, add a little water to your face along with the ZZ cream, and then wash off in the AM and apply the moisturizer. Then repeat this each day. I would think the itching and burning on your chin will go away eventually, say in a week.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brady Barrows View Post
    If I eat a lot of sugar/carbohydrate I will see zits and redness within a short period of time, say a day or two. So I have to maintain a strict sugar/carbohydrate free diet along with the ZZ cream to maintain my clearance.
    Brady, assuming that the ZZ cream is providing clearance by killing / reducing the population of the demodex mites, why do you think eating sugar/carbodydrates causes you to break out again? If we accept that demodex activity are causing your PPs - and ZZ cream is taking care of the demodex - why would your diet bring out PPs? I would be interested in your thoughts... It makes me wonder if the ZZ also has another method of operation other than just killing mites - i.e. a general anti-inflammatory action?

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brady Barrows View Post
    The ZZ cream does contain menthol. I particularly like the cool menthol effect of the ZZ cream. My recommendation is to rinse your face with just water before applying the ZZ cream at night without applying the moisturizer first, just the ZZ cream (if you must, add a little water to your face along with the ZZ cream, and then wash off in the AM and apply the moisturizer. Then repeat this each day. I would think the itching and burning on your chin will go away eventually, say in a week.
    Kinda building up to using it without moisturiser first. Itís just Iíve had flu so skin is quite dry.
    I like the menthol feeling. Just scared about giving myself eczema on top of everything else.
    Iím 48 so have mature skin so just kinda taking it slow.
    Think itching has eased a little. Itís been a week now Iíve heard week 2 is bad.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Mistica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch1 View Post
    Brady, assuming that the ZZ cream is providing clearance by killing / reducing the population of the demodex mites, why do you think eating sugar/carbodydrates causes you to break out again? If we accept that demodex activity are causing your PPs - and ZZ cream is taking care of the demodex - why would your diet bring out PPs? I would be interested in your thoughts... It makes me wonder if the ZZ also has another method of operation other than just killing mites - i.e. a general anti-inflammatory action?
    Finally! Someone else is thinking logically!

    If you ask me, demodex has gained far too much attention again! No doubt we all have some type of activity in our faces, some more than others, but in general, the P&P's of rosacea are caused by abnormal gut flora. Note, I say, in general. I am sure they play a much larger role in some people.

    Those who really make the effort to modify their gut flora with a low carb diet, even for a therapeutic period of time, take antimicrobials, whether they be herbal, or prescription, and perhaps even practice fasting (a very useful tool), eat fermented foods, usually find this makes a positive impact on their faces, although benefits can take a long time to stick around.
    The problem is maintaining the improvement as modifying the gut flora permanently, or clearing SIBO is easier said than done.
    Correcting nutritional insufficiencies is important too.

    I am a severe flusher. I should clarify, I am not constantly in that state these days, and in general my symptoms are pretty well controlled, but if I don't maintain my regime which includes dietary, supplemental and topical, things ramp up quickly.

    I used to have lots of P&P's. Antibiotics would clear them. I did several courses of Rifaximin which is not absorbed systemically. This would clear the outbreaks quickly but long term remission was only achieved by treating my gut with diet and supplements. And these days, fasting.

    I have been using ZZ cream for years and find it very useful. It has helped with flushing, redness and healing the P&P's.
    I believe it has other benefits aside from targeting demodex.
    Perhaps we have abnormal microbes in our skin, or excessive amounts? This has certainly been suggested in the few useful studies that have been done.
    It likely has anti inflammatory effects and menthol interacts with the TRPM8 receptor.

    Sugar doesn't feed demodex. It just doesn't make sense.
    However, highly refined carbs, or even lots of fibre (if you have the wrong type of flora) will produce an imbalance of fatty acids in the skin, which then, in theory not only causes inflammation, but will provide a more supportive environment for demodex.

    If I change my diet, and cause a shift in the gut flora, in my case, this is reflected within a day or two by the appearance of P&P's on my face. They often appear on areas of visible capillaries as these are weak and leak.
    ZZ cream helps heal the outbreaks and reduces inflammation.
    I generally only apply it to my nose and upper lip area these days, (to control inflammation) but when I get breakouts, I spot treat them.
    Hydrogen peroxide works pretty well too.
    A change in gut flora also affects my antibody levels. (I have autoimmune disease).

    I have been following people on this forum for years and my experiences are reflected in many, many other people.

    I have also noticed that what I like to call classic rosacea, the outbreak type, responds far quicker to dietary change than the flushing type does. Severe flushing is just hell on earth, which I am sure the other flushers here would be quick to agree upon. It can also be a very complex condition to rein in and can involve multiple systems.

    When I refer to dietary change, I am not talking about removing this food or that food. I am talking about making a radical change to the type of flora that is being nurtured.
    Don't forget the benefits of fasting.

    There is lots of information to be found on the above in the archives of this forum.
    Last edited by Mistica; 30th December 2019 at 01:22 PM.
    Previous Numerous IPL.
    Supplements: Niacinamide, Vit K2, low D3, Vit A. Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Very low dose B's. Low dose zinc (to correct deficiency).
    Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA 2%, ethyl ascorbate 2%.

    Treating for gut dysbiosis.(This is helping).
    Previous GAPS diet. Have now introduced lots of fibre.
    Fermented Foods. Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.
    Oral Colostrum. Helps reduce food reactions.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Brady Barrows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch1 View Post
    Brady, assuming that the ZZ cream is providing clearance by killing / reducing the population of the demodex mites, why do you think eating sugar/carbodydrates causes you to break out again? If we accept that demodex activity are causing your PPs - and ZZ cream is taking care of the demodex - why would your diet bring out PPs? I would be interested in your thoughts... It makes me wonder if the ZZ also has another method of operation other than just killing mites - i.e. a general anti-inflammatory action?
    The reason sugar/carbohydrate is a rosacea trigger is that sugar/carbohydrate provides the fuel for the rosacea inflammation. As for the assumption that killing / reducing the population of the demodex mites are you aware that Galderma says on the Soolantra website, "The active ingredient in Soolantra Cream is ivermectin, which is reported to have anti-parasitic and anti-inflammatory properties; however, the exact mechanism of action of Soolantra Cream in the treatment of rosacea is unknown" ? There are some papers that state that Decreasing Demodex Density Count Improves Rosacea and the overall consensus with most authorities is reducing the numbers works (What are the numbers?), however, not everyone responds well to demodectic rosacea treatments. One paper says that the percentage of rosacea patients who respond to demodectic rosacea is 33.8%. There really isn't much data on what the actual number of demodectic rosacea cases are in the rosacea population in general, but I suspect a significant percentage.

    There are many other variants of rosacea besides demodectic rosacea. My dermatologist says I have rosacea and SD (which does not respond well to demodectic rosacea treatment). So it is possible that some rosaceans may be suffering with demodectic rosacea and some other co-existing condition. Getting back to the sugar/carbohydrate, it doesn't matter what variant, phenotype or co-existing condition you are suffering with, reducing sugar/carbohdrate will improve the inflammation which doesn't cure the issue, but is definitely controls it. The ZZ cream has a lot of ingredients that may improve the skin besides the sulphur. Reducing sugar/carbohydrate will only assist in the healing.
    Last edited by Brady Barrows; 30th December 2019 at 01:22 PM.
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  6. #76
    Senior Member Mistica's Avatar
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    Getting back to the sugar/carbohydrate, it doesn't matter what variant, phenotype or co-existing condition you are suffering with, reducing sugar/carbohdrate will improve the inflammation which doesn't cure the issue, but is definitely controls it. The ZZ cream has a lot of ingredients that may improve the skin besides the sulphur. Reducing sugar/carbohydrate will only assist in the healing.
    I agree with the inflammation trigger.
    I also agree that ZZ cream has ingredients which improve the skin. I have used other sulphur products which don't work.
    ZZ cream may have ingredients which reduce oxidative stress for instance.
    Previous Numerous IPL.
    Supplements: Niacinamide, Vit K2, low D3, Vit A. Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Very low dose B's. Low dose zinc (to correct deficiency).
    Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA 2%, ethyl ascorbate 2%.

    Treating for gut dysbiosis.(This is helping).
    Previous GAPS diet. Have now introduced lots of fibre.
    Fermented Foods. Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.
    Oral Colostrum. Helps reduce food reactions.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistica View Post
    Finally! Someone else is thinking logically!

    If you ask me, demodex has gained far too much attention again! No doubt we all have some type of activity in our faces, some more than others, but in general, the P&P's of rosacea are caused by abnormal gut flora. Note, I say, in general. I am sure they play a much larger role in some people.

    Those who really make the effort to modify their gut flora with a low carb diet, even for a therapeutic period of time, take antimicrobials, whether they be herbal, or prescription, and perhaps even practice fasting (a very useful tool), eat fermented foods, usually find this makes a positive impact on their faces, although benefits can take a long time to stick around.
    The problem is maintaining the improvement as modifying the gut flora permanently, or clearing SIBO is easier said than done.
    Correcting nutritional insufficiencies is important too.

    I am a severe flusher. I should clarify, I am not constantly in that state these days, and in general my symptoms are pretty well controlled, but if I don't maintain my regime which includes dietary, supplemental and topical, things ramp up quickly.

    I used to have lots of P&P's. Antibiotics would clear them. I did several courses of Rifaximin which is not absorbed systemically. This would clear the outbreaks quickly but long term remission was only achieved by treating my gut with diet and supplements. And these days, fasting.

    I have been using ZZ cream for years and find it very useful. It has helped with flushing, redness and healing the P&P's.
    I believe it has other benefits aside from targeting demodex.
    Perhaps we have abnormal microbes in our skin, or excessive amounts? This has certainly been suggested in the few useful studies that have been done.
    It likely has anti inflammatory effects and menthol interacts with the TRPM8 receptor.

    Sugar doesn't feed demodex. It just doesn't make sense.
    However, highly refined carbs, or even lots of fibre (if you have the wrong type of flora) will produce an imbalance of fatty acids in the skin, which then, in theory not only causes inflammation, but will provide a more supportive environment for demodex.

    If I change my diet, and cause a shift in the gut flora, in my case, this is reflected within a day or two by the appearance of P&P's on my face. They often appear on areas of visible capillaries as these are weak and leak.
    ZZ cream helps heal the outbreaks and reduces inflammation.
    I generally only apply it to my nose and upper lip area these days, (to control inflammation) but when I get breakouts, I spot treat them.
    Hydrogen peroxide works pretty well too.
    A change in gut flora also affects my antibody levels. (I have autoimmune disease).

    I have been following people on this forum for years and my experiences are reflected in many, many other people.

    I have also noticed that what I like to call classic rosacea, the outbreak type, responds far quicker to dietary change than the flushing type does. Severe flushing is just hell on earth, which I am sure the other flushers here would be quick to agree upon. It can also be a very complex condition to rein in and can involve multiple systems.

    When I refer to dietary change, I am not talking about removing this food or that food. I am talking about making a radical change to the type of flora that is being nurtured.
    Don't forget the benefits of fasting.

    There is lots of information to be found on the above in the archives of this forum.
    My count for Sibo was 2-3 abnormal is 20+ but my rosacea did start after antibiotics and gastritis.
    I am taking probiotics but maybe I need stronger ones. I don’t eat hardly any sugar an I’m on lowfodmaps .
    Also not got H Pylori. But have lots of nerve pain and shaking hands and legs. But nothing showing up. Bowels are in a mess. So whether it’s brain gut nerve related or imbalance I have no idea now. Also have burning mouth so nerve brain related. But I definitely have demodex yeast imbalance on my skin . As you say though not enough studies done into it. And Docs don’t seem overly interested in it as a condition.
    Last edited by Rubydo1; 30th December 2019 at 11:06 PM.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Mistica's Avatar
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    My count for Sibo was 2-3 abnormal is 20+ but my rosacea did start after antibiotics and gastritis.
    I am taking probiotics but maybe I need stronger ones. I donít eat hardly any sugar an Iím on lowfodmaps .
    Also not got H Pylori. But have lots of nerve pain and shaking hands and legs. But nothing showing up. Bowels are in a mess. So whether itís brain gut nerve related or imbalance I have no idea now. Also have burning mouth so nerve brain related. But I definitely have demodex yeast imbalance on my skin . As you say though not enough studies done into it. And Docs donít seem overly interested in it as a condition.
    Whilst SIBO has been the focus on the cause of all troubles, more attention is now being given to the large bowel flora. That is where all the important stuff is supposed to happen. By that, I mean, SIBO should not exist in a healthy person, and the large bowel should gain a nice balance of flora to direct the immune system in a healthy way.
    Once it has been disturbed by antibiotics, it can be very difficult to regain harmony, especially if beneficial communities have been wiped out.

    Which antibiotics did you take?
    I developed neuropathy after rounds of metronizadole. It also caused the worse flushing imaginable. Worse than the hellish topical brimonidine! And I ended up in the ER due to that!.

    Perhaps your nerve pain is related to a nutritional deficiency, or even insufficiency?
    I developed all sorts of issues due to the antibiotics and nutritional insufficiencies. However I took multiple antibiotics over many years, thanks to uninformed doctors.

    Probiotics can fuel gut flora problems in some people.

    I see you live in the UK. I believe a fellow member here attends a nutritional clinic in London which seems to have an interest in all things gut related.
    Have you considered going for a consultation?

    I apologise to everyone for helping to derail this thread, but believe it was important to provide some balance.

    Even Dr S, the Ukranian Dermatologist treats the gut and body as a whole, despite firmly believing that a number of microbes reside in our facial skin. He attacks these aggressively as many people here know.

    And by the way, the young lady on this forum who completed his full treatment over a year ago, remains completely clear and is happily getting on with her life.
    Previous Numerous IPL.
    Supplements: Niacinamide, Vit K2, low D3, Vit A. Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Very low dose B's. Low dose zinc (to correct deficiency).
    Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA 2%, ethyl ascorbate 2%.

    Treating for gut dysbiosis.(This is helping).
    Previous GAPS diet. Have now introduced lots of fibre.
    Fermented Foods. Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.
    Oral Colostrum. Helps reduce food reactions.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Brady Barrows's Avatar
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    Mistica,
    Derailing a thread is a common practice at RF and has been accepted for some time now since we hardly hear from any moderator. David Pascoe chimes in once in a blue moon and has been incredibly tolerant of what is going on here which I appreciate since he has been footing the bill for a number of years now. This thread, Zhongzhou cream, is an unconventional treatment that the American Medical Association would not ever give their approval of so why not bring in Dr. S, which probably the newbies here haven't a clue who he is who has been around for many years discussed in the various rosacea online groups. So who is the 'young lady on this forum who completed his full treatment over a year ago' since my mind is foggy on this? The problem with an example like this is you can't confirm if she 'remains completely clear.' What is usually the case with rosacea is that it comes back after a remission period. You are well aware of this Mistica.

    So I will add to your derailment. What Western medicine has ignored for over a hundred years is the majority of the microbes of the human microbiome and focused mainly on a tiny part of it, bacteria. I did some research on this and wrote an article that what is needed is to focus on what may be more of a concern is virus, archaea, fungi, protozoa, helminths, and any other microbes of the human microbiome, not to mention demodex. We do know that virus takes up the largest percentage in weight in the human microbiome, while bacterial, which is the main focus of western medicine only takes up a small percentage, probably about 1% to 3% of the body mass. Virus takes up ten times as much mass as bacteria in the human microbiome. While there has been some focus on virus due to the incredible amount of research done on HIV, which is commendable, very little, if any, has virus even been considered in rosacea. And what about using bacteriophage for rosacea instead of antibiotics?

    Very little is known about archaea and there is no reliable data on the percentage of archaea in the human microbiome. Can we really rule out archaea and rosacea? That is what western medicine has done, by simply ignoring it. There has been some research into fungi, protozoa, helminths and demodex. We do know demodex has some issues in rosacea. Science will probably in the future find more microbes which haven't been discovered yet. I think the obsession and bias that modern western medicine has with bacteria may someday be corrected.

    At least, there are different approaches available for rosacea treatment like the Zhongzhou cream and Dr. S. And we have RF to discuss these 'derailments.'
    Brady Barrows
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch1 View Post
    Brady, assuming that the ZZ cream is providing clearance by killing / reducing the population of the demodex mites, why do you think eating sugar/carbodydrates causes you to break out again? If we accept that demodex activity are causing your PPs - and ZZ cream is taking care of the demodex - why would your diet bring out PPs? I would be interested in your thoughts... It makes me wonder if the ZZ also has another method of operation other than just killing mites - i.e. a general anti-inflammatory action?
    The ZZ cream is fascinating to me. So far I've let 3 people try it. An older aunt tried it for just redness from rosacea. No P&P. She said it reduced her redness about 90% in 3 days with absolutely no changes to diet. The second person is 21 with a recurring pimple on her cheek. She has had it for about a year, with no other acne or outbreaks. We will try ZZ next week and see what happens. The third seems to have pre-rosacea with rough patches on her cheeks and orange-peel skin on her temples, very similar to mine, however only mild redness and no P&Ps. She will start ZZ tomorrow. I will post their progress, as I am very curious to see what happens. I think my success in the past 4.5 weeks was due mainly to ZZ cream and secondarily to changes in diet/fasting/detoxing/addition of missing nutrients in my diet. Personally I think once my skin started to clear with the ZZ cream I was able to address the underlying redness. I don't think changes to my diet alone would have helped the welts/marks/pustules I was dealing with, which were clearly from the demodex. It also seems like each person's experience is different. What works for one may not work for another.

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