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Thread: Seeking advice from subtype 1 flushers who have had IPL or Laser

  1. #1
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    Default Seeking advice from subtype 1 flushers who have had IPL or Laser

    Hi,

    My first time posting in this part of the forum. I have erythematotelangiectatic Rosacea.. No P&Ps, but a pretty pink face most of the time... And when I flush its pretty bad. My Symptoms just kicked off earlier this year and it's been an intense time for me ever since. The flushing is mostly triggered by exposure to temps over 19 deg C /65 F. It has caused me to become quite a hermit and I have lost much work as a result.

    Cutting a long story short, I had an initial consultation today with a reputable doc who does laser treatments here in Scotland. I left the clinic surprised and disappointed, as he told me quite categorically that he did not belive that laser or IPL could reduce anyone's Rosacea flushing, such treatments could only remove telangiectasia... Flushing would still happen.

    I said that surely his opinion is unusual, given how widely laser and IPL are touted as a solution, albeit temporary, for Rosacea sufferers.. And surely the Internet abounds with positive results shared by real people who have received one of these forms of treatment.

    I confess I left the clinic in tears. I have tried so many things over the past months and had invested a lot of hope with laser or IPL.

    I'm tempted to go elsewhere..... But I would welcome any comments from anyone out there, especially if you have suffered mainly from flushing and have had a treatment that helped you.

    Thanks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiugs View Post
    Hi,

    My first time posting in this part of the forum. I have erythematotelangiectatic Rosacea.. No P&Ps, but a pretty pink face most of the time... And when I flush its pretty bad. My Symptoms just kicked off earlier this year and it's been an intense time for me ever since. The flushing is mostly triggered by exposure to temps over 19 deg C /65 F. It has caused me to become quite a hermit and I have lost much work as a result.

    Cutting a long story short, I had an initial consultation today with a reputable doc who does laser treatments here in Scotland. I left the clinic surprised and disappointed, as he told me quite categorically that he did not belive that laser or IPL could reduce anyone's Rosacea flushing, such treatments could only remove telangiectasia... Flushing would still happen.

    I said that surely his opinion is unusual, given how widely laser and IPL are touted as a solution, albeit temporary, for Rosacea sufferers.. And surely the Internet abounds with positive results shared by real people who have received one of these forms of treatment.

    I confess I left the clinic in tears. I have tried so many things over the past months and had invested a lot of hope with laser or IPL.

    I'm tempted to go elsewhere..... But I would welcome any comments from anyone out there, especially if you have suffered mainly from flushing and have had a treatment that helped you.

    Thanks...
    Hi Fiugs,

    I am sorry you are suffering with this horrible condition. I have had many IPL treatments myself, and although they do not stop the flushing completely (unfortunately nothing does), i found them to be very beneficial, both in terms of appearance and flushing. Coupled with use of medication, in my case clonidine, i am much better than i was when i first developed the condition. Although i still have really tough days, i dread to think what state i would be in without IPL and clonidine, as i could not function at all. The trouble with dermatologists and GP'S is that they simply do not understand how painful this condition can be. If i was you, I would definitely consider laser treatment, but must stress that is important to find someone that is both professional and reputable. Although there is no solution at the moment for this condition, there are things that can make life a little easier. Unfortunately, as we are all different Fiugs, it is a case of trial and error i am afraid. I hope this info is useful to you, and i hope you find the answers you are looking for. My advice to you, don't give up, and stay as positive as you can. All the best.

    burner

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    Hello Fiugs,

    I, like many others on this forum, had regular Gemini Nd:Yag treatments with Dr Peter Crouch in Swindon until he sadly passed away last month. These treatments have helped me a lot and I believe that they are the most successful laser treatment for most flushers.

    Today I had my first Gemini Nd:Yag with Dr John Tanqueray in Northampton. He has been using the Gemini for many years and has his own protocols in place, but agreed to use Dr Crouch's protocol (I wanted to stick to what I know as it's been successful for me) - 45j/cm2, 50 mSec pulse width, 6 passes (10 shots per pass - 8 across the cheeks and 2 in the corners of the nose), 30 second delay between passes. I'm not sure if he used a timer between passes like Dr Crouch, but there was certainly a significant delay between passes.

    His clinic's website is www.mulberryhouseclinic.co.uk and the treatment cost 300

    I hope that helps

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    Default Thanks for your replies

    Thanks to you both for this reassurance.

    On, but I'm so sorry to hear that Dr Crouch as passed away. I didn't know.... That's very sad.

    One of the things that frustrates me immensely is the immutable attitude that many mainstream practitioners take, with regard to drugs or treatments for Rosacea. But I guess they feel they have to tow some sort of acceptable line,based on current science..

    My sense with the laser doc I saw on Monday was that he just couldn't be bothered. I feel the same about my GP and also about the derm she referred me to. Perhaps they take this disinterested attitude because they also feel frustrated as practitioners with being unable to simply offer a reliable treatment, never mind a cure...

    Anyway, although the doc on Monday did offer to do a treatment (if I insisted) despite his belief that it would not help, I don't feel I inclined to get a treatment from someone who believes it will not help; as I would have a concern that his attitude may play some small part in how the treatment is carried out.

    I saw someone else today and got a patch test at a very conservative setting (my request). I was flushed in the area of the patch test, but the car air conditioner has it down to baseline by the time I was home an hour later. It's five hours later now and I feel and see no ill effects. I return in just over two weeks for my first full treatment.

    Dang, it hurt tho! My skin is pretty sensitive these days, so no surprise I suppose....

    Thanks for the link to the Mulberry House clinic, I'll keep that in case need it in the future.

    Go well....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiugs View Post
    Thanks to you both for this reassurance.

    On, but I'm so sorry to hear that Dr Crouch as passed away. I didn't know.... That's very sad.

    One of the things that frustrates me immensely is the immutable attitude that many mainstream practitioners take, with regard to drugs or treatments for Rosacea. But I guess they feel they have to tow some sort of acceptable line,based on current science..

    My sense with the laser doc I saw on Monday was that he just couldn't be bothered. I feel the same about my GP and also about the derm she referred me to. Perhaps they take this disinterested attitude because they also feel frustrated as practitioners with being unable to simply offer a reliable treatment, never mind a cure...

    Anyway, although the doc on Monday did offer to do a treatment (if I insisted) despite his belief that it would not help, I don't feel I inclined to get a treatment from someone who believes it will not help; as I would have a concern that his attitude may play some small part in how the treatment is carried out.

    I saw someone else today and got a patch test at a very conservative setting (my request). I was flushed in the area of the patch test, but the car air conditioner has it down to baseline by the time I was home an hour later. It's five hours later now and I feel and see no ill effects. I return in just over two weeks for my first full treatment.

    Dang, it hurt tho! My skin is pretty sensitive these days, so no surprise I suppose....

    Thanks for the link to the Mulberry House clinic, I'll keep that in case need it in the future.

    Go well....
    Hi Fiugs,

    I understand your frustration regarding the doctors you've seen. When i saw NHS dermatologists several years ago, they not only seemed completely disinterested in my flushing, but categorically told me that 'there is no treatment for flushing'. I had already read up online about laser treatment so I knew that wasn't true thankfully.

    What treatment is it that you're having, is it IPL? Everybody is different but Dr Crouch told me that in his experience IPL only produces minimal improvement for flushing and is more effective at reducing base (permanent) redness. He said that he has found the Nd:yag to be by far the best treatment where flushing is concerned (he told me he didn't rate pulse dye laser for flushing either, again it helps more with base redness) ... so do consider contacting Dr Tanqueray (or someone closer to you if you can find someone with the Gemini).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanniH View Post
    Hi Fiugs,

    I understand your frustration regarding the doctors you've seen. When i saw NHS dermatologists several years ago, they not only seemed completely disinterested in my flushing, but categorically told me that 'there is no treatment for flushing'. I had already read up online about laser treatment so I knew that wasn't true thankfully.

    What treatment is it that you're having, is it IPL? Everybody is different but Dr Crouch told me that in his experience IPL only produces minimal improvement for flushing and is more effective at reducing base (permanent) redness. He said that he has found the Nd:yag to be by far the best treatment where flushing is concerned (he told me he didn't rate pulse dye laser for flushing either, again it helps more with base redness) ... so do consider contacting Dr Tanqueray (or someone closer to you if you can find someone with the Gemini).
    I've just signed up and paid for a course of IPL... so I guess I'll have to stick with that. I've just had the test patch so far and there are three sessions to follow in the package.

    I had originally consulted with a laser specialist, he was the guy who said it wouldn't help with flushing. I didn't want to belive him, but also didn't want to be treated by someone who didn't think what he was doing would address my main concern.

    Given that I have such skin sensitivity and (I'm led to believe) IPL hurts less than laser, maybe my course of action could be to do the 3 IPLs at this stage, to ease my way in.. see what the results are and then proceed with laser if necessary, in the hope that if IPL has at least succeeded in taking things down a bit, then there would be less remaining for the laser to zap.. Hopefully meaning less torture

    I'll keep a note of the doc you mention.. It would be a huge financial investment for me to go all the way down south for treatments, but, as we all know, anything that makes a difference is well worth considering.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiugs View Post
    I've just signed up and paid for a course of IPL... so I guess I'll have to stick with that. I've just had the test patch so far and there are three sessions to follow in the package.

    I had originally consulted with a laser specialist, he was the guy who said it wouldn't help with flushing. I didn't want to belive him, but also didn't want to be treated by someone who didn't think what he was doing would address my main concern.

    Given that I have such skin sensitivity and (I'm led to believe) IPL hurts less than laser, maybe my course of action could be to do the 3 IPLs at this stage, to ease my way in.. see what the results are and then proceed with laser if necessary, in the hope that if IPL has at least succeeded in taking things down a bit, then there would be less remaining for the laser to zap.. Hopefully meaning less torture

    I'll keep a note of the doc you mention.. It would be a huge financial investment for me to go all the way down south for treatments, but, as we all know, anything that makes a difference is well worth considering.

    Thanks
    Hi Fiugs,

    Best of luck with your IPL treatments, I really hope they go well for you. And if not then try not to be disheartened as there are other options out there.

    On the subject of pain, that isn't something you'll need to worry about if you do decide to go down the yag route in the future... it is a gentle laser and although it can sometimes get a little painful on the later passes (as more energy and heat builds up in the face), it is by no means unbearable. And believe me, i have a low pain threshold!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanniH View Post
    Hi Fiugs,

    Best of luck with your IPL treatments, I really hope they go well for you. And if not then try not to be disheartened as there are other options out there.

    On the subject of pain, that isn't something you'll need to worry about if you do decide to go down the yag route in the future... it is a gentle laser and although it can sometimes get a little painful on the later passes (as more energy and heat builds up in the face), it is by no means unbearable. And believe me, i have a low pain threshold!
    That's reassuring! I've been told in the past that I have quite a high pain threshold, but you wouldn't have thought so during my IPL patch test - and apparently it was at a low setting!

    How was your skin in the days following a treatment, or indeed a patch test? My face looked pretty normal (for me!) the next day, but it felt a little bruised inside.. probably due to the wee flush I had as a result of the test (mostly due to nerves, I think). But, in the four days that followed, my whole face (not just the test area) seemed to be a little more pink and reactive and wanting to flush, unless I kept carefully on top of it whenever possible with a fan, aloe Vera gel and such like. I also noticed that I was extremely anxious...often with a strong, rapid heart beat as well. It was hard to sleep for the first couple of nights after the test due on this feeling. I am inclined to attribute my more reactive skin since the test to my anxiety, rather than any actual physical effect of the IPL.

    It does lead me to wonder two things though:

    1 - is there a connection between nerves, (as in neurology) and nerves (as in nervousness/anxiety)? i.e. did the effect of the IPL on my facial nerves effect on my whole system, resulting in generalised anxiety such as I have rarely experienced before? Is that a stretch?
    2 - I am now interested in what % of my Rosacea is triggered by stress. I have certainly had quite a lot of it in my work life in the past 10 years. I will need to pay more attention to this and look out for what's going on when my face flushes and hurts most.

    I've avoided any drugs so far.. But I'm considering asking the doc for a trial of Clonidine for a while... for the flushing of course, but also becuase I gather it helps a little with anxiety. I would like I think it might just help me through the IPLs, especially as I'm supposed to avoid flushes at all costs in the days following a treatment.. And maybe after that the treatments are done I could let go of the Clonidine again. Does that make any sense to anyone out there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiugs View Post
    That's reassuring! I've been told in the past that I have quite a high pain threshold, but you wouldn't have thought so during my IPL patch test - and apparently it was at a low setting!

    How was your skin in the days following a treatment, or indeed a patch test? My face looked pretty normal (for me!) the next day, but it felt a little bruised inside.. probably due to the wee flush I had as a result of the test (mostly due to nerves, I think). But, in the four days that followed, my whole face (not just the test area) seemed to be a little more pink and reactive and wanting to flush, unless I kept carefully on top of it whenever possible with a fan, aloe Vera gel and such like. I also noticed that I was extremely anxious...often with a strong, rapid heart beat as well. It was hard to sleep for the first couple of nights after the test due on this feeling. I am inclined to attribute my more reactive skin since the test to my anxiety, rather than any actual physical effect of the IPL.

    It does lead me to wonder two things though:

    1 - is there a connection between nerves, (as in neurology) and nerves (as in nervousness/anxiety)? i.e. did the effect of the IPL on my facial nerves effect on my whole system, resulting in generalised anxiety such as I have rarely experienced before? Is that a stretch?
    2 - I am now interested in what % of my Rosacea is triggered by stress. I have certainly had quite a lot of it in my work life in the past 10 years. I will need to pay more attention to this and look out for what's going on when my face flushes and hurts most.

    I've avoided any drugs so far.. But I'm considering asking the doc for a trial of Clonidine for a while... for the flushing of course, but also becuase I gather it helps a little with anxiety. I would like I think it might just help me through the IPLs, especially as I'm supposed to avoid flushes at all costs in the days following a treatment.. And maybe after that the treatments are done I could let go of the Clonidine again. Does that make any sense to anyone out there?
    I've never had IPL so can't personally comment on how it feels, but Dr Crouch told me that most people find it more painful than the yag... he said most patients liken it to hot fat spitting on their face (the IPL, not the yag).

    After yag treatments I find that I flush immediately afterwards (or maybe within 10 minutes or so) and that subsides after a couple of hours. Thereafter I have no side effects or signs of treatment... it's as if it never happened, until the improvement kicks in around 6 weeks later. Dr Crouch said that most people experience an increase in flushing for 2-4 weeks following the treatment, then return to where they were before treatment, and then see a reduction in flushing around 6 weeks post treatment. I'm one of the lucky few who gets the improvement without the initial worsening.

    With regards to clonidine, I believe it's something a lot of people get good results with. It's not a route I've chosen to go down as I've heard a lot about rebound flushing which frightens me (I've seen people on here talk about flushing randomly x amount of hours after taking it, and also Dr Crouch told me that the rebound flushing if you come off the clonidine is terrible and can last for a few months). For me it's not something I want to do because although my flushes can be ferocious (I am at the more severe end of the scale), I don't flush randomly... I know my triggers and luckily as a result I'm able to avoid flushing terribly in front of other people (admittedly that involves sacrifices, I avoid social situations if the temperature is more than I can handle)... and losing that element of control isn't worth it for me. It's a personal choice though and a lot of people use it and are very happy with it.

    Sorry for the essay!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanniH View Post
    I've never had IPL so can't personally comment on how it feels, but Dr Crouch told me that most people find it more painful than the yag... he said most patients liken it to hot fat spitting on their face (the IPL, not the yag).

    After yag treatments I find that I flush immediately afterwards (or maybe within 10 minutes or so) and that subsides after a couple of hours. Thereafter I have no side effects or signs of treatment... it's as if it never happened, until the improvement kicks in around 6 weeks later. Dr Crouch said that most people experience an increase in flushing for 2-4 weeks following the treatment, then return to where they were before treatment, and then see a reduction in flushing around 6 weeks post treatment. I'm one of the lucky few who gets the improvement without the initial worsening.

    With regards to clonidine, I believe it's something a lot of people get good results with. It's not a route I've chosen to go down as I've heard a lot about rebound flushing which frightens me (I've seen people on here talk about flushing randomly x amount of hours after taking it, and also Dr Crouch told me that the rebound flushing if you come off the clonidine is terrible and can last for a few months). For me it's not something I want to do because although my flushes can be ferocious (I am at the more severe end of the scale), I don't flush randomly... I know my triggers and luckily as a result I'm able to avoid flushing terribly in front of other people (admittedly that involves sacrifices, I avoid social situations if the temperature is more than I can handle)... and losing that element of control isn't worth it for me. It's a personal choice though and a lot of people use it and are very happy with it.

    Sorry for the essay!
    Wow.. So some say the Yag hurts less than IPL?? Well that explains a lot about my experience. Well, I'll stick with what I'm doing this time... I'm sure I'll have opportunities in the future to try laser instead

    Luckily, I have few triggers... Unluckily the main one I have is very restrictive: most homes and even public buildings seem to set their temps higher than the 18deg C we do at home. On the plus side, I really do seem to be less 'trigger happy' for the last two weeks, which I am attributing to the low carb and the SB oil.

    It would seem that the Clonidine is already having an effect, even after just two days, as my BP is right where it should be this morning and the terrible fast heart beating and anxiety I had after my IPL patch test is gone.. I'm sure my BP must have been high a few days earlier! And the random flushing I was getting, exactly in the patch test spot, has stopped. I'm on 50 micrograms twice daily and this is only day three.

    I would prefer to come off the drugs after the IPL sessions if possible, as I was not flushing before the patch test, just by managing my diet. If I do come off, I will do so very gradually, in the hope I don't get rebound flushing. I will post results here, and hope that they will be reassuring ones for you, DanniH What I can say at this very early stage is that I have had no rebound flushes in the hours before my next dose is due. Although I'm sure how things would have been if I had been on Clonidine and not on low carb as well!

    All I want it to get through the IPLs with minimal flushing in the days following the treatments. If Clonidine can give me that - and then let me stop it without a rebound - I will be grateful.

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