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Thread: About VBeam

  1. #1
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    Default About VBeam

    I wanted to clarify some things regarding Vbeam since there is some misinformation on the forum.

    Pupuric Vs NonPurpuric This means bruising versus not bruising. Whether or not you bruise will depend on your skin and the settings of the Vbeam. The theory behind nonpurpuric is that enough energy is developed in the blood vessels to cause them the die off in the following days. For a purpuric treatment, the blood vessels explode instantly (and hence the bruising). The trick with nonpurpuric treatments is to deliver sufficiency energy to cause the vessels to die (which is not always easily determined). If you don't get energy to them, you can't expect a result. For a purpuric treatment, it is obvious that the blood vessels have been exposed to sufficient energy via the bruise. Some say purpuric treatments are necessary for results, while others may benefit from nonpurpuric. The decision of which to go with will depend on downtime, cost, how severe your rosacea is, etc.

    Downtime. Downtime for nonpurpuric treatments ranges from hours to a couple days (in general). The definition of downtime can be ambiguous, but you should not be too much worse off (though may be more red) after treatment. You won't (or shouldn't) look horrible though. Purpuric treatments are very different. Expect about 10 days-2 weeks (roughly) before you look normalish. Purpuric treatment leave a significant bruise which is hard to cover, even with thick makeup. Note, there have been reports of very aggressive purpuric treatments where healing took months.

    Settings - Energy Per Area. There are 3 main settings to the Vbeam. The first is energy/area (J/cm^2). The greater this setting is, the greater the chance you will bruise. Increased settings usually mean longer downtimes (whether pupuric or not). The typical range is from 6-10J/cm^2. Clearly this is an important setting.

    Settings - Pulse Duration. This is how long it takes to deliver the energy. The shorter the duration, the greater the overall intensity. The values I am familiar with are 10ms, 6ms, 3ms, 1.5ms (milliseconds). The lower the value, the greater chance of bruising. Again, the shorter the duration the greater the intensity and greater the chance or bruising.

    Settings - Spot Size. This value is not terribly important since the two previous settings are unchanged by the spot size (well at least in theory). Due to the way light is emitted, this is not exactly true, but is roughly true. In general, most doctors will use a 10mm spot size (the largest) because this is largest and treatments will be quicker. There are some other reasons why a 10mm is a good choice, but I won't go into that. It is possible you may be treated with a smaller spot size though and the settings are not directly comparable (though still close). Since most people get a 10mm spot size, you really want to compare the Energy Per Area and Pulse Duration to reported results.

    Settings - Typical. A typical low end setting would be 6.5J/cm^2, 10ms, 10mm. In my case, that is a fairly low setting and I probably wouldn't even notice it. At 8.0-8.5J/cm^2 , 10ms, 10mm I am not purpuric. At 7.5J/cm^2 , 6ms , 10mm I will have some non purpuric spots and some nonpurpuric. At 7J/cm^2 , 3ms , 10mm I am purpuric with every shot. You can clearly see just how important pulse duration is.

    There are reports on this forum of 10J/cm^2 , 1.5 ms treatments. Based on what I have read and my own personal experience, this could be overkill. Once you deliver enough intensity to the blood vessels to make them explode, extra intensity just means more risk and downtime. Compare this treatment with the point at which I am purpuric (7J/cm^2 and 3ms) and you will see just how intense (10J/cm^2 and 1.5ms) is. Needless to say, if the settings are this intense, you will experience significant downtime (perhaps months). The problem with this is that you are not able to treat frequently, which may be an effective way to treat rosacea.

    VBeam vs IPL Vbeam is a laser, with nearly all of the energy being delivered at 595nm. This is considered to be a good wavelength for targeting blood vessels. The good thing is that all of the energy is being delivered to the target. This means you can increase the settings to a point where you can kill blood vessels but not damage the skin tissue.

    IPL is not a laser. Rather, it delivers energy in a BAND of light wavelengths. This means that a good amount of energy is essentially wasted and not targeting your blood vessels. Therefore, to get the same amount of energy to the blood vessel as the VBeam you will have to increase the total amount of energy to the skin tissue. This can mean one of two things. (a) You aren't able to get enough energy to the blood vessels without damaging the skin (and hence no improvement). (b) You get enough energy to the vessels and you damage the skin in the process. Now, that said, IPL can still work but the VBeam is more forgiving, greater chance of success, and less risk (at least in theory). In general, this seems to be supported by forum member's experience.

    Will VBeam Work? Hard to say. You will just have to try for yourself and it may take several sessions with a qualified practitioner. Here is what I will say. Creams and potions, diet, etc. can definitely help rosacea. But the problem sometimes is that your vessels are basically damaged and can not be repaired with a cream or potion. VBeam (and IPL) attempt to destroy your current vessels and hope that the new ones are "better" than the old. This is only thing than really "repair" your currently damaged vessels. If your vessels are in a repairable state then a cream/potion may be able to prevent it from becoming permanently damaged. But once the damage exists, you may have to consider VBeam or IPL. That said, we still don't fully understand rosacea and it is very complex and unique for each person. So this is just a rough opinion and not to considered fact by any means.

    I have tried just about everything and while some things help a little bit (some make it a lot worse), it seems no cream/potion/low level light/etc is going to truly get the vessels back to a normal state. VBeam does have that potential at least (even though it may not be realized for many).

    If you see any errors, please correct. I am not an expert by any means. Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiry View Post
    I wanted to clarify some things regarding Vbeam since there is some misinformation on the forum.

    Pupuric Vs NonPurpuric This means bruising versus not bruising. Whether or not you bruise will depend on your skin and the settings of the Vbeam. The theory behind nonpurpuric is that enough energy is developed in the blood vessels to cause them the die off in the following days. For a purpuric treatment, the blood vessels explode instantly (and hence the bruising). The trick with nonpurpuric treatments is to deliver sufficiency energy to cause the vessels to die (which is not always easily determined). If you don't get energy to them, you can't expect a result. For a purpuric treatment, it is obvious that the blood vessels have been exposed to sufficient energy via the bruise. Some say purpuric treatments are necessary for results, while others may benefit from nonpurpuric. The decision of which to go with will depend on downtime, cost, how severe your rosacea is, etc.

    Downtime. Downtime for nonpurpuric treatments ranges from hours to a couple days (in general). The definition of downtime can be ambiguous, but you should not be too much worse off (though may be more red) after treatment. You won't (or shouldn't) look horrible though. Purpuric treatments are very different. Expect about 10 days-2 weeks (roughly) before you look normalish. Purpuric treatment leave a significant bruise which is hard to cover, even with thick makeup. Note, there have been reports of very aggressive purpuric treatments where healing took months.

    Settings - Energy Per Area. There are 3 main settings to the Vbeam. The first is energy/area (J/cm^2). The greater this setting is, the greater the chance you will bruise. Increased settings usually mean longer downtimes (whether pupuric or not). The typical range is from 6-10J/cm^2. Clearly this is an important setting.

    Settings - Pulse Duration. This is how long it takes to deliver the energy. The shorter the duration, the greater the overall intensity. The values I am familiar with are 10ms, 6ms, 3ms, 1.5ms (milliseconds). The lower the value, the greater chance of bruising. Again, the shorter the duration the greater the intensity and greater the chance or bruising.

    Settings - Spot Size. This value is not terribly important since the two previous settings are unchanged by the spot size (well at least in theory). Due to the way light is emitted, this is not exactly true, but is roughly true. In general, most doctors will use a 10mm spot size (the largest) because this is largest and treatments will be quicker. There are some other reasons why a 10mm is a good choice, but I won't go into that. It is possible you may be treated with a smaller spot size though and the settings are not directly comparable (though still close). Since most people get a 10mm spot size, you really want to compare the Energy Per Area and Pulse Duration to reported results.

    Settings - Typical. A typical low end setting would be 6.5J/cm^2, 10ms, 10mm. In my case, that is a fairly low setting and I probably wouldn't even notice it. At 8.0-8.5J/cm^2 , 10ms, 10mm I am not purpuric. At 7.5J/cm^2 , 6ms , 10mm I will have some non purpuric spots and some nonpurpuric. At 7J/cm^2 , 3ms , 10mm I am purpuric with every shot. You can clearly see just how important pulse duration is.

    There are reports on this forum of 10J/cm^2 , 1.5 ms treatments. Based on what I have read and my own personal experience, this could be overkill. Once you deliver enough intensity to the blood vessels to make them explode, extra intensity just means more risk and downtime. Compare this treatment with the point at which I am purpuric (7J/cm^2 and 3ms) and you will see just how intense (10J/cm^2 and 1.5ms) is. Needless to say, if the settings are this intense, you will experience significant downtime (perhaps months). The problem with this is that you are not able to treat frequently, which may be an effective way to treat rosacea.

    VBeam vs IPL Vbeam is a laser, with nearly all of the energy being delivered at 595nm. This is considered to be a good wavelength for targeting blood vessels. The good thing is that all of the energy is being delivered to the target. This means you can increase the settings to a point where you can kill blood vessels but not damage the skin tissue.

    IPL is not a laser. Rather, it delivers energy in a BAND of light wavelengths. This means that a good amount of energy is essentially wasted and not targeting your blood vessels. Therefore, to get the same amount of energy to the blood vessel as the VBeam you will have to increase the total amount of energy to the skin tissue. This can mean one of two things. (a) You aren't able to get enough energy to the blood vessels without damaging the skin (and hence no improvement). (b) You get enough energy to the vessels and you damage the skin in the process. Now, that said, IPL can still work but the VBeam is more forgiving, greater chance of success, and less risk (at least in theory). In general, this seems to be supported by forum member's experience.

    Will VBeam Work? Hard to say. You will just have to try for yourself and it may take several sessions with a qualified practitioner. Here is what I will say. Creams and potions, diet, etc. can definitely help rosacea. But the problem sometimes is that your vessels are basically damaged and can not be repaired with a cream or potion. VBeam (and IPL) attempt to destroy your current vessels and hope that the new ones are "better" than the old. This is only thing than really "repair" your currently damaged vessels. If your vessels are in a repairable state then a cream/potion may be able to prevent it from becoming permanently damaged. But once the damage exists, you may have to consider VBeam or IPL. That said, we still don't fully understand rosacea and it is very complex and unique for each person. So this is just a rough opinion and not to considered fact by any means.

    I have tried just about everything and while some things help a little bit (some make it a lot worse), it seems no cream/potion/low level light/etc is going to truly get the vessels back to a normal state. VBeam does have that potential at least (even though it may not be realized for many).

    If you see any errors, please correct. I am not an expert by any means. Thanks.
    Very helpful! Don't see any errors, totaly agree. Especially that creams, diet etc. won't help dilated/broken bloodvessels! Spend way to much on those creams, does not work.

  3. #3
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    Excellent post, thanks.

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    There may be a few people a little confused but for the most part all this is exactly what I see here. Most people understand most of this

    As for the 10j 1.5ms, that did seem powerful but was just one person, he had darker skin so maybe that had something to do with it. However that was done by a professional so who are we to question that. There is a medical journal online documenting a serious case of KPRF and the setting used by this team of doctors was 12joules with a pulse duration of 3ms, while the bruising was significant and the downtime close to a month the results were incredible. The patients face was almost cured after multiple treatments.

    Good info though.
    Last edited by username; 2nd March 2014 at 04:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username View Post
    There may be a few people a little confused but for the most part all this is exactly what I see here. Most people understand most of this

    As for the 10j 1.5ms, that did seem powerful but was just one person, he had darker skin so maybe that had something to do with it. However that was done by a professional so who are we to question that. There is a medical journal online documenting a serious case of KPRF and the setting used by this team of doctors was 12joules with a pulse duration of 3ms, while the bruising was significant and the downtime close to a month the results were incredible. The patients face was almost cured after multiple treatments.

    Good info though.

    Do you have a link to that online document? i'm curious

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    Quote Originally Posted by antrax View Post
    Do you have a link to that online document? i'm curious
    I do, but it's behind a paywall, as all these official medical things seem to be. Very reliable info though. However the most important parts (the settings and the before/after pictures) are visible for free.

    I think I might buy it so I can show my derm, but I haven't yet. That is severe case that is almost under control (easily survivable)

    http://www.readcube.com/articles/10....82.x?locale=en
    Last edited by username; 2nd March 2014 at 04:46 AM.

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    I'm actually overjoyed as I type this. It's been 3 days since I had my first V-beam. I did not bruise, I was simply red and swollen.
    Today I woke up and noticed that my skin looks better than it did before Thursday. In fact, it looks better than it has for the past 10 months.
    You know when you look at yourself in the mirror every day for weeks, months, even years - you learn every imperfection.
    I wasn't expecting anything like this after the first treatment, and so soon. I even went to the gym today and three hours later I'm fine.
    I don't want to jump the gun here but I can definitely see improvement after one non-pupuric treatment.

    Very happy with V-beam so far

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    Glad to hear that Josef, had mine on thursday too, nonpupric, but mine is still bit red and whatnot, hoping to have similar results.

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    Cheers matey. Any improvement means I'm on the right track. Best of luck.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josef61 View Post
    I'm actually overjoyed as I type this. It's been 3 days since I had my first V-beam. I did not bruise, I was simply red and swollen.
    Today I woke up and noticed that my skin looks better than it did before Thursday. In fact, it looks better than it has for the past 10 months.
    You know when you look at yourself in the mirror every day for weeks, months, even years - you learn every imperfection.
    I wasn't expecting anything like this after the first treatment, and so soon. I even went to the gym today and three hours later I'm fine.
    I don't want to jump the gun here but I can definitely see improvement after one non-pupuric treatment.

    Very happy with V-beam so far
    Yay! That is fantastic news
    Keep us updated.
    After months and months of deliberation I am ringing to arrange my first V Beam appointment tomorrow. Working from home at the moment so will probably never have a better time to do it.

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