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Thread: Seborrheic Dermatitis & Folliculitis -- Review of OTC Treatments for Malassezia

  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Busby View Post
    Zinc pyrithione (ZP) doesn't dissolve in anything so you can't add it to a shampoo. You can add it of course, but don't expect much from a dump-in method. It will clump up either at the top or the bottom of the shampoo.

    You could probably try to suspend the ZP particles of ZP in a shampoo by mixing some pre-neutralized 0.05% sodium carbomer in water and glycerin (roughly 50/50), and then add ZP, and then dump it in a base shampoo, so the ZP is 2% of the base. This would be really bad aesthetically.

    But more importantly, ZP doesn't do anything useful as to seb derm, because it has no effect on malassezia. You can google all of the main manufacturer's research articles if you want to know more. Long story short, the manufacturer has several in-house chemists who tried to determine what ZP does, and have stated that it binds to copper on the skin and thereby works as a super-mild exfoliant. The manufacturer's last study, before they apparently gave up trying, found that it's functionality was similar to live brewer's yeast. (???) Really. I don't know why anyone buys a product with ZP.

    The manufacturer has a great advertising campaign, I'll give them that. ZP was first marketed as H&S in the 1960's (and is therefore grandfathered under the old rules, which don't require any proof of effectiveness), so the FDA allows them to claim it treats dandruff. Bad laws allow for useless products.
    Thanks for the tip, guess it isn't really practical then. ZP shampoo gave me a lot of relief, I bought Boot's store brand shampoo but they decided to completely change the whole recipe, remove Zinc add fragrance but make no mention of it.
    It makes sense that it has no effect on malassezia but gave me relief. Malassezia is part of everyone's natural skin biome, people with seb derm just cannot it a genetic defect, possibly related to a compromised epidermal barrier. Trying to battle Malassezia is futile and you're not getting at the root of the problem. The best we can do is to constantly clear the build-up from our scalp to provide temporary relief. Maybe the shampoo worked because it didn't contain irritating ingredients like fragrance and the Zinc made for an effective and gentle build-up remover.
    Last edited by applecake; 5th July 2019 at 10:38 AM.

  2. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Busby View Post
    All ketoconazole shampoos are made with sulfate-surfactants and you may be experiencing skin irritation and skin drying from the surfactants.

    Or, the dry skin may be an excess of keratin, which is a separate condition but probably creates a favorable environment for malassezia, initially. It's a chicken or egg kind of question, in my opinion.

    Either way, you'll be better off trying the shampoo daily for 2 weeks and then deciding whether you're getting positive results, overall.

    3-4 minutes is long enough to leave the lather on your skin. Be sure to rinse completely -- the sulfate surfactants must be washed off completely. The best way to ensure that you're rinsing completely is to wash off the shampoo in the shower. Splashing in the sink is not nearly as good for rinsing. And rinse about twice as long as you think is necessary, either in the shower or in the sink.

    Fluconazole didn't do anything for me.
    Hey Tom, are there any supplements you recommend taking for SD to help against the oilyness? Or food to avoid. I guess why Accutane helped is of course the vit A but my body cant handle Accutane no more, heat intolerance, dry lips etc.. Im taking Zinc, Omega 369, Magnesium (Orotat) at the moment but yet actually seeing improvement.
    Just wonder if you know something that helps in that regard.
    Thx

  3. #623
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    I bought the Eucerin shampoo today from Toms protocol that contains Climbazol and Pirocton Olamin. There are actually two versions of it the Gel for more yellow oily dandruff and the Creme for dry dandruff. At least thats how they describe it.
    Now that I not really suffer from much dandruff at all but really oily, sensitive/burning scalp with dry hair, hair loss I still went with the Gel verison as it contains less ingredients.
    After showering it b2b my hair feels not so dry as other shampoos do.
    Its actually for daily use. I guess I will use it for a week or two and see.
    Last edited by opare; 11th July 2019 at 07:20 PM.

  4. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by opare View Post
    I bought the Eucerin shampoo today from Toms protocol that contains Climbazol and Pirocton Olamin. There are actually two versions of it the Gel for more yellow oily dandruff and the Creme for dry dandruff. At least thats how they describe it.
    Now that I not really suffer from much dandruff at all but really oily, sensitive/burning scalp with dry hair, hair loss I still went with the Gel verison as it contains less ingredients.
    After showering it b2b my hair feels not so dry as other shampoos do.
    Its actually for daily use. I guess I will use it for a week or two and see.
    Let us know how you get on .
    I’ve been using ELVIVE PHYTOCLEAR SHAMP SENSITIVE 400ML

    Ingredients : Aqua / Water, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Coco-Betaine, Glycol Distearate, Glycerin, Ci 42090 / Blue 1, Ci 14700 / Red 4, Ci 19140 / Yellow 5, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Hydroxide, Ppg-5-Ceteth-20, Peg-55 Propylene Glycol Oleate, Salicylic Acid, Melaleuca Alternifolia Leaf Oil / Tea Tree Leaf Oil, Limonene, Fumaric Acid, Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil, Menthol, Linalool, Propylene Glycol, Piroctone Olamine, Carbomer, Geraniol, Octyldodecanol, Citronellol, Citrus Aurantium Bergamia Peel Oil / Bergamot Peel Oil, Citric Acid, Lavandula Angustifolia Oil / Lavender Oil, Hexyl Cinnamal, Parfum / Fragrance
    My skin can tolerate this and it has Piroctone Olamine in . But they have just changed the formula and now it irritates my skin.

  5. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubydo1 View Post
    Let us know how you get on .
    I’ve been using ELVIVE PHYTOCLEAR SHAMP SENSITIVE 400ML

    Ingredients : Aqua / Water, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Coco-Betaine, Glycol Distearate, Glycerin, Ci 42090 / Blue 1, Ci 14700 / Red 4, Ci 19140 / Yellow 5, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Hydroxide, Ppg-5-Ceteth-20, Peg-55 Propylene Glycol Oleate, Salicylic Acid, Melaleuca Alternifolia Leaf Oil / Tea Tree Leaf Oil, Limonene, Fumaric Acid, Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil, Menthol, Linalool, Propylene Glycol, Piroctone Olamine, Carbomer, Geraniol, Octyldodecanol, Citronellol, Citrus Aurantium Bergamia Peel Oil / Bergamot Peel Oil, Citric Acid, Lavandula Angustifolia Oil / Lavender Oil, Hexyl Cinnamal, Parfum / Fragrance
    My skin can tolerate this and it has Piroctone Olamine in . But they have just changed the formula and now it irritates my skin.
    Is that the new formula? Ive run a lot of products through SkinCarisma lately to check ingredients and this doesnt look that good tbf. If it irritates you this site may help you in finding something new. There was a Malassezia site linked here before to someone that listed up lots of products and his experience. Very helpful if you are stuck

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by opare View Post
    I bought the Eucerin shampoo today from Toms protocol that contains Climbazol and Pirocton Olamin. There are actually two versions of it the Gel for more yellow oily dandruff and the Creme for dry dandruff. At least thats how they describe it.
    Now that I not really suffer from much dandruff at all but really oily, sensitive/burning scalp with dry hair, hair loss I still went with the Gel verison as it contains less ingredients.
    After showering it b2b my hair feels not so dry as other shampoos do.
    Its actually for daily use. I guess I will use it for a week or two and see.
    Quick update on this, it didnt last long as my burning sensation on my scalp got worse, maybe thats normal in the beginning, after visiting new derm, he gave me Ektoselen Shampoo with sulfur and selenium disulphide. not sure if translation works. Mixed feelings so far and havent read that great things about it online. 3xWeek. After two washes, hair still very dry and scalp hot, itchy and sensitive. No dandruff.

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Busby View Post
    Hi aussiechick, I tried Mustella Foam very early in my attempts to treat SD with climbazole, and found it to be completely ineffective. I believe that the climbazole in it isn't dissolved and emulsified.

    Later, I figured out how to dissolve climbazole in alcohol (which can be isopropanol or ethanol) and then emulsify it into an oil-in-water lotion and shampoo. Only in this way, I found that climbazole was very effective -- this is the foundation for my best guess as to why Mustella is worthless. It also illustrates that we can't just dump climbazole into something and expect it to work.

    And spiritus asked my current opinion as to the chicken or egg, in other words, which comes first, an allergy to malassezia or what? Good question.

    After testing one ingredient after another, in individual succession, to isolate the "first cause," it seems in my case that an excess of keratin created an environment where the fungus malassezia could thrive. My opinion is based on my subsequent use of Vitamin A, a super mild retinol, and sodium hyaluronate, HMW, both of which slowly dissolve the excess keratin layer. Sure, climbazole will nuke the fungal load, but the excess keratin layer requires more time and effort, and requires the ingredients I mentioned above. It has become apparent in my case that it should have been most important to remove the excess keratin layer. Well, live and learn.

    With hindsight, I can now see what I had been battling. Not only an allergic reaction to malassezia, but to everything else that goes wrong from having a sticky layer of excess keratin. For example, the awful windblown glochids from prickly pear, cholla, and other desert cacti that can became embedded in excess keratin. Look up glochids and you can see how they get embedded -- I think malassezia works in a similar way.
    Hi Tom,

    I’m just pondering after further failed treatments - I was wondering what you used for the sodium hyaluronate product you used to assist with the extra keratin layer? Assuming you may have made your own concoction being the clever person you are. For those of us who are less clever(!), are there any specific products you could recommend?

    Thanks a lot,

    Jess

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    Hello everybody and hello Tom, I would like to know what's the best topic for seb derm and Malassezia
    Is it soolantra or is it rozex in cream?
    I mean to put on the little red areas or red dot point on forehead or near the hair line?
    My condition seems to be worst especially in summer when we have high temperature or very high humidity in July or August, when we have very high temperature.
    Thks for your reply

  9. #629
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    Default Benefits of Vitamin D

    The problem with Climbazole – the Benefits of Vitamin D

    Climbazole is a very effective anti-fungal. However, the problem with climbazole has been that it usually takes your age in decades times 2, to calculate the number of months for your skin to heal to the point where no one else would notice, on casual glimpse, that anything is wrong with your skin. This is Stage 1 of healing. To get Stage 2, where no one would notice on close inspection, takes twice the time of Stage 1. To get to the final Stage (Stage 3), where you yourself will not notice any problems on close inspection, takes twice the time of Stage 2. I invented the “Stages” concept to account for the fact that people are harder on themselves than others are.

    By using topical Vitamin D, you don’t have to wait so long to suppress or eliminate malassezia, because topical Vitamin D allows the skin to rapidly rejuvenate itself, minus the layer of excess keratin – this excess keratin layer provides the perfect environment for malassezia to thrive. By eliminating the excess keratin, you’re evicting malassezia from the safe-place provided by excess keratin.

    I started using climbazole when I was 59, so it took me a year to get to Stage 1, but the benefits were immediately obvious, which is why I stayed the course. Nevertheless, it truly takes far too long for your skin to heal, and reasonable people should suspect there’s an additional root cause for seb derm – not only malassezia.

    Accordingly, in June 2019, I found that adding Vitamin D to my products is extremely beneficial for eliminating excess keratin. I’m a good “test subject” for excess keratin, as my entire body had clogged pores and patches of excess keratin, especially the bottom of my feet, the palms of my hands, and my elbows, even after long-ago eliminating my malassezia-problem. By process of slowly incorporating sodium hyaluronate, Vitamins A and E, and finally, Vitamin D, to my own products and testing them on myself created a solution where my “extra layer of skin” flaked off. Hurray! See, “Atopic dermatitis treatment needs more than 5,000 IU of Vitamin D,” RCT, September 2018, found on the web at https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._control_trial .

    In my case, it was apparent I was unable to metabolize enough Vitamin D in my digestive system, because I had previously taken oral supplements with high doses of Vitamin D without any changes at all concerning my skin. Vitamin D malabsorption in the gut is most likely a genetic condition, but for those who would like to see this as a connection between the digestive system and the skin, there is that.

    Additional support for my theory that people absorb Vitamin D in very different amounts in their digestive systems, as shown in the chart (attached as a .pdf) – look at the wide range of individual responses, from https://vitamindwiki.com/Reasons+for...+to+vitamin+D: Example #1 from chart: 2400 IU dose: 75-140 nmol response (the same as 30-56 ng). Example #2 from chart: 4000 IU dose: 50-160 nmol response (the same as 20-62 ng)

    My initial hypothesis was that transdermal absorption of Vitamin D would be more efficient for skin problems, because it avoids problems with absorption in the gut. In addition, because the skin produces Vitamin D when exposed to sunlight, the delivery route for Vitamin D would be optimized when applied topically to the skin.

    Additional research was necessary to determine the concentration of Cholecalciferol that could be used, in the minimum proportion. First, assuming my own full body use of 10ml of lotion per day, and second, employing the guidance of “Investigating Transdermal Delivery of Vitamin D3,” AAPS PharmSciTech, Vol. 16, No. 4, August, 2015, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4508301/, the concentration used in my products, 0.003% cholecalciferol by weight, results. See also, https://mms.mckesson.com/product/956...es-00299201210 and https://www.researchgate.net/publica...f_Xerotic_Skin .

    The improvement in skin quality was immediate and effective for my skin, so the concentration appears optimal.

    This concentration of Cholecalciferol, even if one assumed, completely contrary to the article cited above, that all of it would be absorbed into the blood serum, would be about 3,000IU per day with normal use on the face and neck, that is, 3ml per day. However, very little if any trans-dermal Vitamin D3 is in fact absorbed into the bloodstream because the barrier properties of the skin prevent it. See, Figures 4 and 5 of the article cited above, and the article-text, which states, “no detectable amount of vitamin D3 permeated through the porcine skin,” when using Cholecalciferol dispersed in oleic acid (a C18 oil very similar to olive oil). Guidelines in the US state that 4,000 IU per day is the maximum tolerable dietary dose – the dietary dose relates to pills that are swallowed. Please keep this in mind if you are taking Vitamin D as an oral supplement, and you probably shouldn’t exceed 4,000 IU per day. https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-D

    The risk from extremely high doses of Vitamin D is a build-up of calcium in your soft tissues, such as your blood vessels, which is not at all healthy. Therefore, if you are taking large doses of Vitamin D, you should add Vitamin K2, also available as MK-7 softgels, in order to prevent vascular calcification and to move calcium away from the soft tissue and vascular system, and into your bones and the dentin layer of your teeth – this is extremely healthy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art.../pdf/34-39.pdf

    Finally, with the recent inclusion of Vitamin D, it’s likely that my earlier estimates for the “Stages” are too long, probably by a factor of 50%. However, I want to repeat, do not crack a Vitamin D capsule onto your skin, as the concentration will be far in excess of a healthy, proper dose.
    Attached Files

  10. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Busby View Post
    The problem with Climbazole – the Benefits of Vitamin D

    Climbazole is a very effective anti-fungal. However, the problem with climbazole has been that it usually takes your age in decades times 2, to calculate the number of months for your skin to heal to the point where no one else would notice, on casual glimpse, that anything is wrong with your skin. This is Stage 1 of healing. To get Stage 2, where no one would notice on close inspection, takes twice the time of Stage 1. To get to the final Stage (Stage 3), where you yourself will not notice any problems on close inspection, takes twice the time of Stage 2. I invented the “Stages” concept to account for the fact that people are harder on themselves than others are.

    By using topical Vitamin D, you don’t have to wait so long to suppress or eliminate malassezia, because topical Vitamin D allows the skin to rapidly rejuvenate itself, minus the layer of excess keratin – this excess keratin layer provides the perfect environment for malassezia to thrive. By eliminating the excess keratin, you’re evicting malassezia from the safe-place provided by excess keratin.

    I started using climbazole when I was 59, so it took me a year to get to Stage 1, but the benefits were immediately obvious, which is why I stayed the course. Nevertheless, it truly takes far too long for your skin to heal, and reasonable people should suspect there’s an additional root cause for seb derm – not only malassezia.

    Accordingly, in June 2019, I found that adding Vitamin D to my products is extremely beneficial for eliminating excess keratin. I’m a good “test subject” for excess keratin, as my entire body had clogged pores and patches of excess keratin, especially the bottom of my feet, the palms of my hands, and my elbows, even after long-ago eliminating my malassezia-problem. By process of slowly incorporating sodium hyaluronate, Vitamins A and E, and finally, Vitamin D, to my own products and testing them on myself created a solution where my “extra layer of skin” flaked off. Hurray! See, “Atopic dermatitis treatment needs more than 5,000 IU of Vitamin D,” RCT, September 2018, found on the web at https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._control_trial .

    In my case, it was apparent I was unable to metabolize enough Vitamin D in my digestive system, because I had previously taken oral supplements with high doses of Vitamin D without any changes at all concerning my skin. Vitamin D malabsorption in the gut is most likely a genetic condition, but for those who would like to see this as a connection between the digestive system and the skin, there is that.

    Additional support for my theory that people absorb Vitamin D in very different amounts in their digestive systems, as shown in the chart (attached as a .pdf) – look at the wide range of individual responses, from https://vitamindwiki.com/Reasons+for...+to+vitamin+D: Example #1 from chart: 2400 IU dose: 75-140 nmol response (the same as 30-56 ng). Example #2 from chart: 4000 IU dose: 50-160 nmol response (the same as 20-62 ng)

    My initial hypothesis was that transdermal absorption of Vitamin D would be more efficient for skin problems, because it avoids problems with absorption in the gut. In addition, because the skin produces Vitamin D when exposed to sunlight, the delivery route for Vitamin D would be optimized when applied topically to the skin.

    Additional research was necessary to determine the concentration of Cholecalciferol that could be used, in the minimum proportion. First, assuming my own full body use of 10ml of lotion per day, and second, employing the guidance of “Investigating Transdermal Delivery of Vitamin D3,” AAPS PharmSciTech, Vol. 16, No. 4, August, 2015, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4508301/, the concentration used in my products, 0.003% cholecalciferol by weight, results. See also, https://mms.mckesson.com/product/956...es-00299201210 and https://www.researchgate.net/publica...f_Xerotic_Skin .

    The improvement in skin quality was immediate and effective for my skin, so the concentration appears optimal.

    This concentration of Cholecalciferol, even if one assumed, completely contrary to the article cited above, that all of it would be absorbed into the blood serum, would be about 3,000IU per day with normal use on the face and neck, that is, 3ml per day. However, very little if any trans-dermal Vitamin D3 is in fact absorbed into the bloodstream because the barrier properties of the skin prevent it. See, Figures 4 and 5 of the article cited above, and the article-text, which states, “no detectable amount of vitamin D3 permeated through the porcine skin,” when using Cholecalciferol dispersed in oleic acid (a C18 oil very similar to olive oil). Guidelines in the US state that 4,000 IU per day is the maximum tolerable dietary dose – the dietary dose relates to pills that are swallowed. Please keep this in mind if you are taking Vitamin D as an oral supplement, and you probably shouldn’t exceed 4,000 IU per day. https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-D

    The risk from extremely high doses of Vitamin D is a build-up of calcium in your soft tissues, such as your blood vessels, which is not at all healthy. Therefore, if you are taking large doses of Vitamin D, you should add Vitamin K2, also available as MK-7 softgels, in order to prevent vascular calcification and to move calcium away from the soft tissue and vascular system, and into your bones and the dentin layer of your teeth – this is extremely healthy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art.../pdf/34-39.pdf

    Finally, with the recent inclusion of Vitamin D, it’s likely that my earlier estimates for the “Stages” are too long, probably by a factor of 50%. However, I want to repeat, do not crack a Vitamin D capsule onto your skin, as the concentration will be far in excess of a healthy, proper dose.
    I'm sure topical Vitamin D is very helpful. However, I would caution that Vitamin K2 is not a good idea orally for anyone who has type 1 rosacea (flushing, redness and/or burning). I know from personal experience it can cause clotting of damaged rosacea vessels, although its clotting function can be very helpful in other conditions.

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