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Thread: Why don't all Rosaceans develop P&P's?

  1. #11
    Senior Member MissD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
    Do you know if any studies have been done on this?
    He never answers this. Ever. Just face it, drums lives in a parallel universe where every disease is cured by diet and where studies don't exist.

  2. #12
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    To return to the topic, my understanding is that P&P follow years of flushing.

    In my case, I suffered from progressive rosacea for years, flushing worse each year, until finally P&P arrived as well.

    So perhaps in some people, the P&P signify an advancing stage of the disorder?

    Also, in my case, it's carbs, not fat, that trigger rosacea. I can eat all the steak and butter I want with no problem. But sugar triggers intense facial flushing.

    Some folks think, and I tend to agree, that rosacea is almost like diabetes of the face.

    In my case, foods with a high glycemic index, foods that spike blood sugar and thus spike insulin, invariably trigger flaring.
    ē 58 yr old woman
    ē Rosacea at 48, debilitating at 52
    ē Clonidine 100mgc ev. 8 hrs;
    ē Remeron 15mg nightly;
    ē Zebeta=Bisoprolol=Beta blocker 5mg nightly;
    ē Brimonidine worked well initially, then MASSIVE rebound flushing and damage;
    ē Countless IPL with Lumenis One;
    ē Now purpuric V Beam with Candela Perfecta; more clearance, less downtime than IPL;
    ē Botox (with mesotherapy needles), good not great results;
    ē Monthly Kenalog injection to blunt debilitating flushing.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Michael_V's Avatar
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    For starters, we're lumping when we should probably be splitting.

    The bumps we rosaceans are blessed with can be divided into at least two broad categories: (1) those related to the sebaceous glands (sebaceous cysts, sebaceous gland hyperplasia, and good old fashioned pimples) and (2) those related to the extravasation of inflammatory mediators from poorly supported (leaky) dermal vessels and/or lymphatics (the traditional papules and pustules often described as small pink domes that are qualitatively different from pimples).

    It is likely the case that true p&ps are related to flushing, while the more sebaceous variety have more to do with our disordered dermal immunity (causing sebaceous gland dysfunction) and/or a cell-mediated immune response to microbial antigens (such as demodex or their commensals).

    So there are different processes at work even within the shorthand phrase "p&ps." Imagine how many subtleties are probably lost when we use the catch-all term "rosacea" to describe such a varied and multifaceted disease.

  4. #14
    Senior Member lonewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drums View Post
    Yes had the test to determine if my food was digested properly test was negative so yes my food was digested okay.
    Drums,

    I don't undertsand. If your test found that your food is digested properly, that would mean the fats in your diet were broken down properly. So how could the problem have been fats not being digested?
    I think you may have some vaild points though Drums, but I must admit I find it difficult to understand alot of what you are saying. Thanks again.


    WrinkledClue,

    I'm the same. Too much sugar and my face will flush. Unfortunately, I love candy bars and chocolate which are the worst triggers. It's been so long since I've had one now. Anyway, in my case I was born with Rosacea, even in my baby pictures you can see my flushed cheeks. I always noticed it in my primary school years but I didn't really find it to be a problem until I hit puberty, then the P&P's started and well, life was never the same after that. Now, I look at my nieces who are in primary school, and they all have early signs of it, they all have pink cheeks, exactly like I did. I fear now, that their lives will be debilitated in the same way mine was when they reach puberty. I can't let that happen, I need a solution to this disease, and I need one now. I can't let them go through what I did, what I still go through.

    I'm not sure that everyone will develop the P&P's. Some people with Type 1 just don't, and we don't know why. I sometimes get them on my forehead, I never have and I still don't flush there, so there is something else at play. Thanks for your input WC.


    Michael_V

    I love your posts. Always concise, well thought out and well studied. I agree that there are different forms of P&P's and that they possibly have different causes. In my case, I'm down to one type now. I only get the small pink domes about the size of a pinhead which are different to pimples, sometimes they are flesh coloured as well but I can see that they are slightly raised from the rest of the skin. I can go weeks without flushing but they still come up. They are coming every day now and are getting out of control. I'm sick of just treating the symptoms, I need to start treating the cause or they will never stop and I'll always have to just manage or control them. This is just not cutting it for me anymore, I want them stopped. I've thought about killing the mites but since we all have them anyway, there must be a reason why they cause breakouts in some of us and not others. If Dr. Gallo proved that elevated levels of cathelicidins played an intricate role in the pathogenesis of this disease, then we need to focus on why we have elevated levels of these proteins. Why are their levels not being regulated and just what role does Vitamin D play in this scenerio if one at all? Thanks Michael_V

    I'm sorry, I'm going to vent my anger. I'm really frustrated with this disease. I just can't take it much longer. It's been so long now, decades, and I don't feel like we are any closer to a cure. We have learnt alot, some people are in remission, some people say they're cured, but I'm not much closer than I was 5 years ago. I just can't live like this anymore, it's taking over my life and I can't help it, I'm obssessive. I sure hope someone is smart enough to work it all out soon, because I sure as hell can't.

    Drums, if you've worked it out and are now symptom free, Congrats! I'm not certain that your solution will work for all of us or even some of us, but at least it works for you. I hope to find what works for me.

  5. #15
    Senior Member lonewolf's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tip Auburn.

  6. #16
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    Ok Drums, you've got me thinking outside the box. Thank You. I shouldn't be so dismissive. Let me just say that just because something works for you it doesn't make it a fact. If a large number of people who suffered from P&P's had them stop after cutting out fats then this would be reasonable evidence that it works. Do you know of anyone else that it has worked on? Do you know if any studies have been done on this?

    No I do not know if any particular studies have been done on this but I have never been inclined to look. I know that really only myself has pinpointed fat as the cause in rosacea plus the fact I often get a good roasting when I say its fat that causes rosacea. People will simply not accept fat as the cause and that is fair enough. Maybe its hereditary to believe fat is good for us and it is good we need it biologically its essential to life. Though in certain circumstances it can have a harmful effect as is with rosacea.
    I do not see anyone who is involved in medical research even blinking an eyelid to the idea that fat causes rosacea.
    It is not my fault that I found fat to be the cause but I have tried to tell people here but with difficulty. Sometimes on Internet forums some people are not always who they seem to be meaning they are really searching for information to write a book on a subject and need facts and figures. I do not have any facts only a few others and myself and I know full well I am wasting my time. Also no one has actually tried the fat solution but it does not really matter if people want to ignore it thatís their choice.
    The nearest people get is well drums were all different or I donít think it will work for me or
    Whatever reason and thatís fine.
    The sad thing is it will work for everybody because fat is at the hierarchy of rosacea itís the fat that maintains rosacea; anyhow!

    Remember lonewolf that in time when the experts have done there job properly fat will be claimed as the number one cause of rosacea because fat is at the hierarchy of rosacea.
    I think probably its going to be some time yet before a solution is found so.!

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by drums View Post
    No I do not know if any particular studies have been done on this but I have never been inclined to look. I know that really only myself has pinpointed fat as the cause in rosacea plus the fact I often get a good roasting when I say its fat that causes rosacea. People will simply not accept fat as the cause and that is fair enough. Maybe its hereditary to believe fat is good for us and it is good we need it biologically its essential to life. Though in certain circumstances it can have a harmful effect as is with rosacea.
    I do not see anyone who is involved in medical research even blinking an eyelid to the idea that fat causes rosacea.
    It is not my fault that I found fat to be the cause but I have tried to tell people here but with difficulty. Sometimes on Internet forums some people are not always who they seem to be meaning they are really searching for information to write a book on a subject and need facts and figures. I do not have any facts only a few others and myself and I know full well I am wasting my time. Also no one has actually tried the fat solution but it does not really matter if people want to ignore it thatís their choice.
    The nearest people get is well drums were all different or I donít think it will work for me or
    Whatever reason and thatís fine.
    The sad thing is it will work for everybody because fat is at the hierarchy of rosacea itís the fat that maintains rosacea; anyhow!

    Remember lonewolf that in time when the experts have done there job properly fat will be claimed as the number one cause of rosacea because fat is at the hierarchy of rosacea.
    I think probably its going to be some time yet before a solution is found so.!
    Drums, I so wish I could follow your posts. Truly. I suspect that part of the reason it's 'difficult' to tell people your theory is because the posts themselves are so hard to read. I don't mean that as an insult - I really would like to understand what you write. The other part is that the theory as presented seems so totally out of left field & unrelated to the experiences of other people on the board (and out in the world, and at the dermatologist's office, or almost anywhere the rest of us might hear of other rosacea sufferers' experiences) - you are literally the ONLY person I have ever seen argue that this particular theory (fats & sweating) is the REAL cause of Rosacea. If this was a more common experience, you might find more backing. But as the ONLY Rosacea sufferer on the internet to ever be cured by avoiding dietary fat & inducing sweating during meals, it's probably a bit twitchy for the rest of us to dive into your approach.

    "Evidence- there is a direct correlation between the amount of fats one eats and the proliferation of p&p. Not meaning anything but if my so called theorys but to me my they are prooved facts
    are allways being discounted there is no hope it means you and many others are always making into a situation where so that you are always looking round the next corner and then the next corner for answers."

    This is where I begin to have a concern. What correlation? I haven't seen anything showing a *direct correlation* between fats & P&P's. Where? Are there studies? Are there reports? Aside from you, has anyone claimed clearance of papulopustular Rosacea by avoiding all fats & inducing sweating while they eat?

    About fats: You blame 'fats' as the cause of rosacea. Which fats? What form? Vegetable oils? Animal fats? Fats used in frying? Frying of what? Raw nut oils? What are we talking about? Rancid fats? Delicate monounsaturates exposed to high heat? Polyunsaturates that have broken down? Saturated fats??? 'Fat' is not one monolithic term - they have complicated chemical structures, some of which are highly unstable ... and many of which are absolutely necessary for life. If you want to break it down by quality or type, that might help to make some sense for the rest of us who are inclined to keep trying to understand your theory, and not dismiss it out of hand. It may well be that certain fats increase inflammation in susceptible individuals (trans-fats, for example - and most polyunsaturates break down into Omega fats that do increase inflammation, when out of balance with Omega 3's) - but you need to define your terms, and identify specifics. Maybe you were eating loads of trans-fats & Omega 6's - and that's what you've cut out, and you've seen improvement by removing poor quality, inflammatory fatty acids. That's a very very different story than 'all fats'. If you can clarify what you mean by 'fats', it might help to support your argument.

    I have inflammatory Rosacea flares, with flushing that comes after I've already begun to show other signs. And mine are brought on by STRESS, some temperature extremes, and CARBS (especially grains - yes, I have tested this). Quality, stable fats in my diet keep my body & skin functioning at a healthier level - along with quality animal-sourced proteins & veggies. A low fat, vegan (I even did 'raw' for a while) diet made my skin (& overall health) much worse. And I say this as someone who was vegetarian for 20 years, so it's not like I didn't know what I was doing. I would probably make the argument that 20 years on a higher-carb, lower fat vegetarian diet probably contributed to my skin's inflammatory process (along with the inevitable joint inflammation I now experience when I bring grains back into my diet). By the way, I sweat just fine - I do Bikram Yoga 4 - 5 times a week, sweating profusely for 90 minutes. Do you want to make the argument that there's something wrong with my sweat glands?

    Take care Drums!
    Types I, II, IV - mild to moderate, depending ...

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dora View Post
    just for the record, there are also those of us who get p&ps but not flushes. (also just for the record, i've tested positive for demodex.)

    not everyone subscribes to the theory that a rosacean reaction to the mites (whether it's redness or p&ps)
    means a person has more of the critters - it may be more about being unfortunately sensitive to them.
    I am one of those, p&p's on my cheeks but no other symptoms.

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    Well bellablue yes I agree:have said people seem to have problems with my fat idea, but they seem to prefer to put it down without even bothering to try it first. Do you know of anyone who has tried it?

    When you say (If this was a more common experience, you might find more backing.) Just saying bellablue here the idea that fat is the cause is new I am not looking for a medal but if I know its fat whatís the point of trying to advise people otherwise it would be a lie.
    My only intention has been to try and help people with a discovery that in my experience
    is the real cause?
    Itís not my fault that fat is the cause thatís just unfortunate; would people have preferred not to know?
    Posts may appear hard to read for people who are naturally conditioned, as a first reaction into believing that when people get rosacea it is a consequence of the skin itself. Itís a hard thing for sufferers to be
    Moved away from that skin idea. I have said many times that rosacea is not a skin problem and also it is a condition that should not be treated as a skin condition. So perhaps that is why you and others have problems understanding.
    Maybe one day some medical might start thinking a bit deeper and do something about it
    Then maybe you will get some scientific papers with the data you need but why? Itís fat!

    A lot of comments you make and quite understandably are about evidence and confirming
    But I am one small person I cannot take my theories any further its difficult as it is; but what is more important I donít need to.

    On the fats thing it does not matter which fat it is or which oil it is because they all contain fatty acids but stearic acids are the worst.

    I have inflammatory Rosacea flares, with flushing that comes after I've already begun to show other signs. And mine are brought on by STRESS, some temperature extremes, and CARBS (especially grains - yes, I have tested this). Quality, stable fats in my diet keep my body & skin functioning at a healthier level.

    Bellablue please understand I have said that fats are good and necessary for the body I am not at odds with fats in the diet. It is only when a person has rosacea or spots then fat is detrimental to the rosacea part and not harmful to the rest of the body said this many times.
    On the physical sweating fine but thatís when you get hot the important question is do you sweat when you eat.

    I donít think we are ever going to make any headway on the forum with this fat thingy so perhaps
    it just needs putting to bed.

  10. #20
    Senior Member nat007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malcom View Post
    What Dora pointed out is even more perplexing to me, i.e. having p&p's but not flushing.


    That is what's so strange to me, since even the slightest of change in the temperatures, wrong eating, alcohol, excercise, coffee, you name it, at least I feel the tingly-prickly feeling on the face, which, depending on the amount of triggers on top of each other, may or may not develop to a full-blown flush. But in any case, I can feel, one way or another, my face almost throughout the day.

    On a side note, how many of you feel your face throughout the day?

    Sorry to go so much off topic, Lonewol!


    Cheers,
    Malcom
    Hi Malcolm, same here.. My face has become ultra sensitive as well. Skin always feels a bit 'tight' to me, even though I'm not flushed most of the day (but do use a long distanced fan all the time). But I can feel a flush coming from it's earliest start and it is annoying. When I get into a parfumed place (public toilet for instance), the heat just crwals up immediately, and my skin startes to burn. Anything I put on it (moisturizer/oil etc), even near the jaw line, starts to get hot and burn. My skin always used to be firm and think and pale. So I am convinced the years of rosacea have sensitized and thinned the skin.

    I still don't understand how the foods work exactely with rosacea. Cheese and gluten and tomatoes make me flush and burn immediately, but I can look more pale then ever when I eat a bar of white chocolate for instance.... Why?? It's sugar, it's fat, it's pro-inflammatory. It is really strange to me..

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