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Thread: Why don't all Rosaceans develop P&P's?

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    Senior Member lonewolf's Avatar
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    Default Why don't all Rosaceans develop P&P's?

    I'm sure this question has been asked before but I'm not sure that we are any closer to answering it with good evidence.

    Is there anyone out there that can answer this question and supply good evidence for their response?

    Let me bring up some of the possibilities........

    1. Blushing. If the P &P's were caused by blushing or flushing then we would all get them. Clearly, the ones with Type1 Rosacea never develop them and they would flush and flare like the rest of us who do get them.

    2. Bacteria. If there was a bacterial element involved with the P&P's, then why don't antibiotics clear them up completely? Why do those of us that develop P&P's have this bacteria and those of us that don't get them do not?

    3. Demodex Mites. Research has shown that we all have these mites but Rosaceans have them in greater numbers than people without Rosacea. Why would these cause P&P's in some of us but not all of us if we all have them in greater numbers, or do we?

    4. Immune response. Is the Immune response for those of us that get them more over-active and dysfunctional than those of us that do not get them? If so, and if our immune response can be regulated by taking Vitamin D, then who has taken Vitamin D for long enough and in large enough amounts to stop P&P's completely? Dan? Who else?

    5. Diet. Is it possible to stop the P&P's with diet alone? If so, then what foods are the ones to avoid and which foods are the ones to eat in greater amounts?

    6. Stress and Anxiety. Do those of us that get them suffer from more stress and anxiety than those of us that do not get them?

    I'm sure there are more possibilities. In summarising, I will bring up this point. The only drug that I know of that stops them completely (and I mean completely, not simply controls them) is Accutane. I know this because I was able to stop them for 1 year after taking this drug at about 40mg a day for about 6 months. Does this drug work because it dries up the sebum that Demodex mites feed on?

    The Demodex cause has been brought up for years now and I know that in one thread some of you are currently experimenting with topical Ivermectin. I think this theory has merit, but I cannot explain why type 1 Rosaceans do not get P&P's if they have demodex mites in greater numbers as well. Can anyone else?

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    just for the record, there are also those of us who get p&ps but not flushes. (also just for the record, i've tested positive for demodex.)

    not everyone subscribes to the theory that a rosacean reaction to the mites (whether it's redness or p&ps)
    means a person has more of the critters - it may be more about being unfortunately sensitive to them.

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    What Dora pointed out is even more perplexing to me, i.e. having p&p's but not flushing.

    I'm 29 now, have been suffering from flushing since I was around 15 and permanent redness since 20. No p&p's.

    I have a friend who is the same age, and he begun developing papulopustular rosacea maybe 4-5 years ago. He never flushed. Nor blushed. Never. And still doesn't. His condition has progressed relatively aggressively and he now has had p&p's covering his entire t-zone for quite some time now. I live in Finland and the weather is completely and utterly **** from november to march and plain cold even longer, but he still goes jogging even in the dead of winter, is an outdoorsy person and many times when we meet it's bunch of guys getting drunk and going to sauna (obviously not the best of choices for a rosacean, but what can you do...), him being the fiercest sauna-goer. And not once have I noticed him flushing, nor complaining about anything relating to it.

    My point being, as a fellow rosacean, I know what a person looks when he/she flushes from rosacea; and particularly if there is burning and/or stinging involved, as you all well know, you tend to look ill at ease, even if only subtly, but still noticeably if you know what to look for.

    He might be an excellent actor, having just decided not to let it rule his life, but I would guess with fair amount of confidence that he simply does not feel his face.

    That is what's so strange to me, since even the slightest of change in the temperatures, wrong eating, alcohol, excercise, coffee, you name it, at least I feel the tingly-prickly feeling on the face, which, depending on the amount of triggers on top of each other, may or may not develop to a full-blown flush. But in any case, I can feel, one way or another, my face almost throughout the day.

    On a side note, how many of you feel your face throughout the day?

    Sorry to go so much off topic, Lonewol!


    Cheers,
    Malcom
    Last edited by malcom; 7th September 2010 at 07:07 PM.

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    Malcolm, i feel my face. It seems to have become extremely sensitive now where as in the past it was a lot stronger. In the past, i could have an eyelash sitting on my cheek and not know it. Now, i can feel it the moment it lands there. Its almost ULTRA sensitive.

    I still don't kno if i have rosacea or not. Maybe i just have an extremely sensitive face. I don't really get P&P's, but i do get blotchy. It just kinda stays blotchy and irritated. Maybe i have seb derm. Maybe i have eczema. Everything is so closely related its hard to differentiate, even for my derm. Whatever it is, i still don't have it under control. I look best in the morning, and worst when its bedtime. Then i repeat the cycle again. Sigh...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
    I'm sure this question has been asked before but I'm not sure that we are any closer to answering it with good evidence.

    Is there anyone out there that can answer this question and supply good evidence for their response?

    Let me bring up some of the possibilities........

    1. Blushing. If the P &P's were caused by blushing or flushing then we would all get them. Clearly, the ones with Type1 Rosacea never develop them and they would flush and flare like the rest of us who do get them.

    2. Bacteria. If there was a bacterial element involved with the P&P's, then why don't antibiotics clear them up completely? Why do those of us that develop P&P's have this bacteria and those of us that don't get them do not?

    3. Demodex Mites. Research has shown that we all have these mites but Rosaceans have them in greater numbers than people without Rosacea. Why would these cause P&P's in some of us but not all of us if we all have them in greater numbers, or do we?

    4. Immune response. Is the Immune response for those of us that get them more over-active and dysfunctional than those of us that do not get them? If so, and if our immune response can be regulated by taking Vitamin D, then who has taken Vitamin D for long enough and in large enough amounts to stop P&P's completely? Dan? Who else?

    5. Diet. Is it possible to stop the P&P's with diet alone? If so, then what foods are the ones to avoid and which foods are the ones to eat in greater amounts?

    6. Stress and Anxiety. Do those of us that get them suffer from more stress and anxiety than those of us that do not get them?

    I'm sure there are more possibilities. In summarising, I will bring up this point. The only drug that I know of that stops them completely (and I mean completely, not simply controls them) is Accutane. I know this because I was able to stop them for 1 year after taking this drug at about 40mg a day for about 6 months. Does this drug work because it dries up the sebum that Demodex mites feed on?

    The Demodex cause has been brought up for years now and I know that in one thread some of you are currently experimenting with topical Ivermectin. I think this theory has merit, but I cannot explain why type 1 Rosaceans do not get P&P's if they have demodex mites in greater numbers as well. Can anyone else?
    5. Diet. Is it possible to stop the P&P's with diet alone? If so, then what foods are the ones to avoid and which foods are the ones to eat in greater amounts?

    Eating fat produced papules in my case and I proved it conclusively and as soon as I realized and stopped
    my papules disappeared but as I am often reminded we are all different so I am told.
    Also eating cured meats produced papules that were very sore also proved.
    I think in my opinion the problem here is that it is not the fat that is in question, for me it is when the people eat fat with rosacea plus p&p the body cannot excrete the fat in the normal way by perspiring normally.(voluntarily).
    It must be remembered however that the perspiration process is continuous but instead of leaving through voluntary perspiration it is forced outward and instead burrows itself like a parasite causing the p&p .
    It begs the question why can I eat fat but not excrete it like normal folks and the answer could lay almost anywhere considering all the processes which fat goes through before and during excretion.
    As you say some with just red no spots some say red face but do sweat or excrete.

    My own conclusion was that there is a set genetic systematic process that deals with fat and part of that process is perspiring and if one does not perspire voluntarily then that process has stalled in other words there is a fault along the line.
    To me the cold climate in winter where the face is exposed to cold plays a big part in rosacea. Most of the folks who suffer live where winter is really cold I mean why do not people in warm have much prevalence
    and why the face why not the rest of the body ( because its warm ).

    Here is one for you Chinese and Asians get acne with the cooking oil but relatively no rosacea. That's something to think about and does fat need a code like an exit visa? and could the code be missing and could it be you that the reason it is missing and could this be the real difference between have n not's.
    Maybe it could well be down to just the way you eat!

  6. #6
    Senior Member lonewolf's Avatar
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    Malcom and Dora,

    I get papules without flushing as well. This is why I do not think that P&P's are caused by flushing. See point number 1. I've been getting them non stop recently and I generally find them in the morning, so I get them overnight while I'm sleeping. Last night I tried something different. I left a honey mask on my face overnight and this morning I awoke to find no new papules at all. So, if they are caused by those little critters the Demodex then they sure don't like honey. I'll be doing this every night for awhile now. I'm happy to rule out flushing or blushing as a cause of P&P's for now.

    Drums,

    Man! where do I start? I have read your posts in another thread regarding this. So what you're saying is that, when we eat fats (contained in meats) we do not digest them properly and the result is that the fats are deposited through the skin in the form of break outs. If this were true, then simply eliminating meat from your diet or becoming a vegetarian would cure Rosacea or at least the P&P's. We know this isn't true, we have many vegetarians on this forum who get P&P's. I personally tried a vegan diet for months and I still got the Papules.

    It's an interesting theory Drums, but I'm not sure it holds much weight without more evidence, otherwise going on a vegan diet would cure us all of P&P's. I'm glad it worked for you though Drums. Thank You all for responding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
    Malcom and Dora,

    I get papules without flushing as well. This is why I do not think that P&P's are caused by flushing. See point number 1. I've been getting them non stop recently and I generally find them in the morning, so I get them overnight while I'm sleeping. Last night I tried something different. I left a honey mask on my face overnight and this morning I awoke to find no new papules at all. So, if they are caused by those little critters the Demodex then they sure don't like honey. I'll be doing this every night for awhile now. I'm happy to rule out flushing or blushing as a cause of P&P's for now.

    Drums,

    Man! where do I start? I have read your posts in another thread regarding this. So what you're saying is that, when we eat fats (contained in meats) we do not digest them properly and the result is that the fats are deposited through the skin in the form of break outs. If this were true, then simply eliminating meat from your diet or becoming a vegetarian would cure Rosacea or at least the P&P's. We know this isn't true, we have many vegetarians on this forum who get P&P's. I personally tried a vegan diet for months and I still got the Papules.

    It's an interesting theory Drums, but I'm not sure it holds much weight without more evidence, otherwise going on a vegan diet would cure us all of P&P's. I'm glad it worked for you though Drums. Thank You all for responding.
    Well vegans eat fats what about vegan cheese and they use vegetable oil for cooking I have read vegan diet books looking for fatless recipes but could never make up a weeks eating from these books where the was no fat. Evidence- there is a direct correlation between the amount of fats one eats and the proliferation of p&p. Not meaning anything but if my so called theorys but to me my they are prooved facts
    are allways being discounted there is no hope it means you and many others are always making into a situation where so that you are always looking round the next corner and then the next corner for answers.
    Don,t dispel things so easily why do you need evidence from who and how many why not just proove it for your person afterall your the one thats suffering.
    Well ok tried a vegan diet for months and I still got the Papules but did you go back over it again and look at it more closely for answers.

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    Senior Member lonewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drums View Post
    Well vegans eat fats what about vegan cheese and they use vegetable oil for cooking I have read vegan diet books looking for fatless recipes but could never make up a weeks eating from these books where the was no fat. Evidence- there is a direct correlation between the amount of fats one eats and the proliferation of p&p. Not meaning anything but if my so called theorys but to me my they are prooved facts
    are allways being discounted there is no hope it means you and many others are always making into a situation where so that you are always looking round the next corner and then the next corner for answers.
    Don,t dispel things so easily why do you need evidence from who and how many why not just proove it for your person afterall your the one thats suffering.
    Well ok tried a vegan diet for months and I still got the Papules but did you go back over it again and look at it more closely for answers.
    Ok Drums, you've got me thinking outside the box. Thank You. I shouldn't be so dismissive. Let me just say that just because something works for you it doesn't make it a fact. If a large number of people who suffered from P&P's had them stop after cutting out fats then this would be reasonable evidence that it works. Do you know of anyone else that it has has worked on? Do you know if any studies have been done on this?

    There is a school of thought that people who have Rosacea tend to be deficient in the pancreatic enzyme lipase, which is an enzyme that helps digest fat. Have you been tested for this deficiency? Have you tried supplementing with this digestive enzyme?

    I've tried taking digestive enzymes that included lipase before. Unfortunately for me this didn't make any difference and I still got P&P's. I know some people on this forum have been helped alot by taking digestive enzymes, so there is some substance to this theory. Thanks for your input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post

    I left a honey mask on my face overnight and this morning I awoke to find no new papules at all. So, if they are caused by those little critters the Demodex then they sure don't like honey. I'll be doing this every night for awhile now.
    Just letting you know that those who applied the raw honey masks every day reported skin irritation and had to stop. The skin needs to rest between treatments, especially if you are going to leave it on all night.
    *
    I've treated seb derm successfully with raw honey and virgin coconut oil and have been symptom-free since June '09. Follow this ---> link <--- for details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
    Ok Drums, you've got me thinking outside the box. Thank You. I shouldn't be so dismissive. Let me just say that just because something works for you it doesn't make it a fact. If a large number of people who suffered from P&P's had them stop after cutting out fats then this would be reasonable evidence that it works. Do you know of anyone else that it has has worked on? Do you know if any studies have been done on this?

    There is a school of thought that people who have Rosacea tend to be deficient in the pancreatic enzyme lipase, which is an enzyme that helps digest fat. Have you been tested for this deficiency? Have you tried supplementing with this digestive enzyme?

    I've tried taking digestive enzymes that included lipase before. Unfortunately for me this didn't make any difference and I still got P&P's. I know some people on this forum have been helped alot by taking digestive enzymes, so there is some substance to this theory. Thanks for your input.


    I am the first person to agree with you it does not make it a fact. Now then here we go I know of two people who after me telling them their spots were due to eating fat and they eventually admitted and shamefully that yes drums its fat. One person was a builder that had started suddenly having a fry up A.M before starting on the job. The other person was a work colleague who ate ridiculous amounts of fat and developed spots forehead, back of ears and sideburn area and nose. Also off topic another work colleague had acid reflux said it was fat he said ridiculous but had a stroke doc put him on diet so he reduced his fat but thing was he drank and ate biscuits ( slotching) the action washed the fat out came to top and irritated his sphincter. He stopped the slotching after my conversation and later admitted it was due to slotching. Then me no fat no spots okay some but not all!

    Yes had the test to determine if my food was digested properly test was negative so yes my food was digested okay. Having said that humans are really creatures that are essentially nothing more than a food-processing machine turning food into a usable substrate i.e. secretions then eventually excretions. It’s vital to realize for this to take place as god intended before any nourishment can take place the fat and water needs to be taken care of. Basically the food needs to become a colloid so lets say mayonnaise.
    Okay principles don’t add all the oil at once or it separates causing no colloid. Now when you look the way modern humans eat in the majority they slotch drink and eat and that separates the fat instead the fat should be blended in with the food for a slow release so bile can do its job this was the way god intended just my opinion.
    Total health really depends upon producing chyme that’s a true colloid in human terms but the way people eat goes at odds with that and people do not think about it at all.
    If the chyme is flawed then all other processes will be flawed leading to pathological malfunction. Anyhow enough of that.!

    Just saying lonewolf rosacea is stupidly complicated and let me say I have studied rosacea for fifteen years every waking moment. Through it I have been able to beat it and now I am the master. Now I will tell you that the rosacea journey starts in the mouth then continues in the first stomach where it contributes to a lot of the redness. Then again in the second stomach bile added here. After this point its too late to reverse any damage because that food will become chyme to enter the thoracic vein the to the liver.

    Personally my view is on spots is this; providing the food has been digested properly
    (Human colloid ) I see no reason why it cannot leave through your face without causing spots after all the rest of your bodily skin does not have spots.

    In my opinion the problem or problems could well be simply down to your sebaceous glands not opening. Say for example if you have rosacea and it has prevented your glands from secreting properly then that could be a factor. Another factor could be you face does not get warm enough like the rest of your body cause your heads out of the covers your face needs to get to 12 degrees centi to perspire.
    If it is rosacea then from experience all you can do is reduce fat intake, which should improve your face skin enough to perspire. Obviously you need warmth as well.
    Lipase does seem to help some but when I considered it for myself I thought that for me to need this I wondered if it was I doing wrong to myself. So I try to eat in such a way to try to get my colloid best I can.

    One thing about spots is this e.g.; say now sat here I get a pinprick sensation in a certain place tomorrow there will be a spot there. Take notice see if it happens to you at the time you do not think anything of it!

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