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Thread: Demodex Mites and Elastotic Degeneration

  1. #11
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    Hi Mistica,

    Why do you rule out solar damage? I always thought that explained the hereditary and genetic link due to the majority of sufferers being fair skinned.

    Leesah

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mistica's Avatar
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    Hi Leesah,

    Many rosaceans are young, 18 to mid 20's. They are too young to have such damage. Not everyone is a sun bunny either. It just doesn't make sense.
    Also many of today's sufferers were raised in accordance with strict sunblock usage.

    Then there are those without fair skin such as myself. I am Latin, olive complexion. Based on the old school of thought, I shouldn't even have rosacea.
    In addition to my genetics, I have rarely spent time outside. In fact, I was inside so much I became very vitamin D deficient. The lower my levels fell, the worse my rosacea became. I didn't know of course, otherwise I would have supplemented sooner. This indicates an immune problem.

    The older and more wrinkly people become, the more their dermal matrix is compromised, but they don't necessarily have rosacea. I have seen many pale skinned prunes.

    We have all seen sundamaged people, who have spent their lives roasting. Their faces don't resemble rosacea at all.

    I agree we do have damage, but I feel it is the result of an internal cause.
    Previous Numerous IPL.
    Supplements: Niacinamide, Vit K2, low D3, Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Very low dose B's. Low dose zinc (to correct deficiency).
    Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA.

    Treating for gut dysbiosis under specialist care. (This is helping).
    Previous GAPS diet. Testing tolerance of resistant starch.
    Fermented Foods. 2 to 3 days per week, Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Michael_V's Avatar
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    Wow, very interesting stuff! There is certainly a lot going on. It can be very difficult to get our arms around it all! I do like that everyone is thinking deeply about this. Good stuff!

    Again, I am not sure what role cryptogenic bacteria or even the much less cryptic demodex mite might play. Infectious etiologies are certainly very tempting targets, though.

    However, right at this moment (might be different tomorrow!) that explanation feels incomplete to me. Not sure why. I don't have a better one!

    I agree that the damage we see to our collagen infrastructure is not likely simple solar elastosis, as many of us (including myself) do not have histories of excessive sun exposure. Also, if this were the primary cause, I would expect a far greater incidence in the equatorial regions and in people who occupationally spend a great deal of time outdoors, such as farmers, shepherds, construction workers, and so on. To my knowledge, there is no such striking predilection.

    What does feel like a real lead to me, however, is that the structural damage is there and the vascular component to rosacea is incidental to it, rather than the other way around. We spend so much of our lives seeing and feeling the vascular phenomena (flushing, erythema) that controlling that becomes all important. But according to the observations in my first post, the vascular problems may well result from poor support from the surrounding dermal soft tissues. It could be that trying to address this structural component may be a more fruitful approach, with more promise for longterm relief.

    It seems to me that this would mean my body is not initiating my flush response abnormally (as it seems to be) when I exercise or eat spicy foods or feel angry or embarrassed--those are, in fact, appropriate times to flush--but my facial soft tissues are abnormal and are not supporting and controlling the flush as they should, so the flush is too intense, and the blood stays too long, pools in my unsupported vessels, and then eventually leaks out into my dermis, inciting inflammation, itching, papules, and pustules.

    This idea gives me something to work with...

    Now the next question (the one everyone seems eager to jump to!) is what happened to undermine the integrity of our skin?

    Could it be genetic predisposition combined with excessive sun exposure? Sure, this has to be part of it, but that can't possibly be the whole picture. Demodex mites or cryptogenic bacteria? Maybe but I need to see a bit more evidence, particularly for the latter. How about Gallo's theory? Stratum Corneum Tryptic Enzyme and the cathelicidins (this theory includes ideas about ATP, as well) are surely relevant but how? Like demodex mites, I have wonder whether I am looking at the the chickens or the eggs?

    Now here are some interesting questions: does SCTE degrade collagen? Or is SCTE a byproduct of collagen breakdown?

  4. #14
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    Good point Mistica

    I suppose there are many ways to end up with connective tissue damage to the skin.
    UV damage may be one of the best ways but also compromised immune systems can crumble cell repair and collagen in our skin and connecting tissue.
    But I know there is more to it.

  5. #15
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    [QUOTE=Michael_V;225331]

    It seems to me that this would mean my body is not initiating my flush response abnormally (as it seems to be) when I exercise or eat spicy foods or feel angry or embarrassed--those are, in fact, appropriate times to flush--but my facial soft tissues are abnormal and are not supporting and controlling the flush as they should, so the flush is too intense, and the blood stays too long, pools in my unsupported vessels, and then eventually leaks out into my dermis, inciting inflammation, itching, papules, and pustules.

    This idea gives me something to work with...

    Hi Michael,

    I like what you had to say, and I think there is something to it.

    Leesah

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mistica's Avatar
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    Vitamin D is required for epidermal cell differentiation and specialization.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...act/247/2/E228

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...f620e9ac37c3b9

    I am sure these have been posted before.

    It is a pity retinoids are so damn irritating. In fact, they trigger the whole rosacea process in some. ( Including me). I wonder if they would be less irritating in those who are not D deficient?
    Could topical retinoids be destructive when applied to a vitamin D deficient skin/body?
    Aside from the theory that the inflammation they create attract cryptic bacteria to set up shop in the region?
    Previous Numerous IPL.
    Supplements: Niacinamide, Vit K2, low D3, Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Very low dose B's. Low dose zinc (to correct deficiency).
    Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA.

    Treating for gut dysbiosis under specialist care. (This is helping).
    Previous GAPS diet. Testing tolerance of resistant starch.
    Fermented Foods. 2 to 3 days per week, Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.

  7. #17
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    I occasionally jump back on the Rosacea forum to see what is new especially in regards to Dermodex etc.

    10 months after a topical course (Trial) of Ivermectin I am still relatively free of Rosacea symptoms. I say relatively as I have one Papule at the moment. No flushing and occasional blushing. I still have a pink tinge to my skin but it is not red, peeling, covered in bumps and burning.

    I can only assume in my case that I have not been reinfected with the Dermodex mites, or more to the point have a huge infestation as previously.

    I still only clean with Cetaphil, use invisible zinc (tinted) every day and a Sensitive Nivea moisturizer at night. I am outdoors heaps with kids and it is now summer. The only thing that I can account for my previous Rosacea symptoms were the Dermodex Mites.

  8. #18
    Moderator Melissa W's Avatar
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    Hi Rachzon

    Thanks so much for the update. I'm so glad you are doing well- that is great news!
    Thanks for popping back here and letting us know. Much appreciated.

    Best wishes for continued success!

    Melissa

  9. #19
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    Might as well throw my two cents worth in.

    I used Pro-activ every night for about a year. Early on, I would rub the Benzoyl Peroxide ALL over as if it were paste. My face would sting like crazy for a good half hour.

    I believe the combination of such strong acne washes, products, sun exposure without sunscreen led to my rosacea.

    I played tennis for my high school four years ago and would get absolutely baked. But I tanned like a god (no ebragging), but now i just get insanely red.

    What happened??

  10. #20
    Senior Member Michael_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rachzon View Post
    I occasionally jump back on the Rosacea forum to see what is new especially in regards to Dermodex etc.

    10 months after a topical course (Trial) of Ivermectin I am still relatively free of Rosacea symptoms. I say relatively as I have one Papule at the moment. No flushing and occasional blushing. I still have a pink tinge to my skin but it is not red, peeling, covered in bumps and burning.

    I can only assume in my case that I have not been reinfected with the Dermodex mites, or more to the point have a huge infestation as previously.

    I still only clean with Cetaphil, use invisible zinc (tinted) every day and a Sensitive Nivea moisturizer at night. I am outdoors heaps with kids and it is now summer. The only thing that I can account for my previous Rosacea symptoms were the Dermodex Mites.
    You just made a lot of people jealous! Just kidding. I am very glad you found an answer that worked for you!

    I really didn't mean to start up a demodex debate on this thead. Just thought it was interesting that, at least in those biopsied, the areas of inflammation were remote from the mites.

    I do think there is good evidence for an entity known as demodex rosacea or rosacea-like demodicidosis, and I wish more dermatologists considered this diagnosis before condemning rosaceans to chronic suppressive therapy, as the demodex form is potentially curable. However, I can't imagine this accounts for more than a small subset of rosaceans. After all, if all or even most cases of rosacea were due to something as easily treatable as demodex, this forum would not exist.

    As a counterbalance to your anecdotal success with acaricidals, here is my anecdotal failure: As a physician, I can experiment on myself fairly easily. Before accepting a diagnosis of rosacea, I attemped oral ivermectin once weekly for six weeks, topical permethrine twice daily for four weeks, topical crotamiton twice daily for three more weeks, and oral metronidazole three times daily for three weeks (!). At various times, I also tried topical tea tree oil and zinc pyrthione. I personally saw my disease progress through these treatments, with particularly increased permanent erythema after crotamiton.

    So my view is: if your rosacea is due to demodex, by all means treat it and get on with your life. But the rest of us are going to have to stick around a bit longer...

    That aside, I am far more interested in the collagen aspect of the disease, which seems to me a novel way of looking at it.

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