Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ZZ cream application area

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tom Busby
    replied
    Menthol in the ZZ cream is probably for the reason you described, so it tingles. I strongly dislike menthol because it burns my eyes, even the fumes.

    Sulfur is a miticide and is surely the active ingredient in ZZ cream. ZZ cream probably uses inorganic sulfur.

    If you'd like to try organic sulfur, buy some OptiMSM, which in its powder-form is about 38% organic sulfur. Because you probably want have about 10% organic sulfur in your final lotion-mix, you'd need to have about 30% MSM powder, and 60% water or some other base lotion. I proposed doing this several years ago as a substitute for ZZ cream, but as far as I know no one ever tried it. (I don't have rosacea, so I can't test it on myself or I would have.) MSM easily dissolves in water.

    There are at least 2 types of squalane oil that are commercially available: one is manufactured from olives, and another one that's completely synthetic. The synthetic type is about 8 times cheaper than the one made from olives. I use the expensive one derived from olives and like it a lot, so I haven't ever tried the synthetic one. An INCI label probably wouldn't disclose which one is used, but I assume the price point would have some relevance to this issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • anemicroyalty
    replied
    Originally posted by Tom Busby View Post
    Squalane is reported to have a carbon chain length of 28-32, so it isn't a food source for malassezia.

    Squalane has a very "soft" feel for an oil, behaving like it has a carbon chain length of about 60, and it's very expensive compared to other oils.

    However, demodex are a much higher life form (an arachnid) capable of biting/chewing and can presumably eat anything that's small enough to fit into their mouth, including squalane, but no one has ever proposed that it's possible to starve out demodex -- they have to be killed with a miticide/arachnicide.

    I don't know why anyone would add yeast extract to a lotion. The product in question by anemicroyalty has so many odd ingredients it's impossible to analyze just one ingredient. Plus, it's my understanding that only High Molecular Weight sodium hyaluronate has wound healing properties, and all the lower weight hyaluronates are skin irritants -- this opinion is based on a large study out of a Toronto hospital that compared the various weight of hyaluronates on burn-victim skin-healing.
    Hi Tom, thanks for your reply! I read the same thing about hyaluronates, but my question is how can you tell if a product has high or low molecular weight hyaluronic acid? Is it apparent from the ingredient list? I will probably look for a new pared down one, though for whatever reason the one I linked to is the only one I've tried so far that feels like it's actually hydrating deeply, and I'm wary of introducing new products while also trying ZZ cream.

    Do we know which ingredient(s) in ZZ act as a miticide? I kind of wish it didn't contain menthol as I feel like it's probably drying my skin out unnecessarily--the sulfur I can understand but I'm not sure what menthol does other than making it tingle and feel like it's working.

    Also, if anyone reading this is interested in trying squalane, the one I use is from the same company (the ordinary) and is quite affordable, around $7/bottle.

    Editing: ok I realized that that serum actually advertises very low molecular weight so I've stopped using it, hopefully that will help with inflammation.
    Last edited by anemicroyalty; 9 May 2020, 05:09 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Busby
    replied
    Squalane is reported to have a carbon chain length of 28-32, so it isn't a food source for malassezia.

    Squalane has a very "soft" feel for an oil, behaving like it has a carbon chain length of about 60, and it's very expensive compared to other oils.

    However, demodex are a much higher life form (an arachnid) capable of biting/chewing and can presumably eat anything that's small enough to fit into their mouth, including squalane, but no one has ever proposed that it's possible to starve out demodex -- they have to be killed with a miticide/arachnicide.

    I don't know why anyone would add yeast extract to a lotion. The product in question by anemicroyalty has so many odd ingredients it's impossible to analyze just one ingredient. Plus, it's my understanding that only High Molecular Weight sodium hyaluronate has wound healing properties, and all the lower weight hyaluronates are skin irritants -- this opinion is based on a large study out of a Toronto hospital that compared the various weight of hyaluronates on burn-victim skin-healing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brady Barrows
    replied
    Originally posted by anemicroyalty View Post
    I am still using squalane, and started using this serum again in the morning which really helps to hydrate my skin and doesn't seem to cause problems but I'm now noticing that hydrolyzed yeast extract is one of the first ingredients for some reason--I'm guessing that isn't good? This is the serum https://hylamide.deciem.com/product/...e-30ml?ccvis=1
    I might have to look for a different hyaluronic acid serum--but if the ZZ cream is killing the mites does it matter if something on my skin is potentially feeding them? Or does it work by producing conditions that starve them?
    Might want Tom Busby who is the expert extraordinaire on SD to answer this about the serum and the squalane. I was just thinking out loud after reading about Squalane on Wikipedia. "Squalane is a hydrocarbon derived by hydrogenation of squalene." "Squalene is the biochemical precursor to the whole family of steroids."

    There is a difference between squalane and squalene. "In contrast to squalene, due to the complete saturation of squalane, it [squalane] is not subject to auto-oxidation."

    Who knows if the mites can even eat squalane?
    Last edited by Brady Barrows; 7 May 2020, 10:14 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • anemicroyalty
    replied
    Originally posted by Brady Barrows View Post
    So you have completed three weeks on the ZZ cream, and your regimen of two nights on one off seems reasonable since you have dry skin. One more week should be enough to convince you that the ZZ cream is improving your issue or not. It will still take eight more weeks for clearance.

    Are you still using Squalene oil as your moisturizer? Trevi said 'supposedly fungus can't feed on it' but since Wikipedia says "While squalane can be found in small quantities in sebaceous secretions (sebum), it is squalene that is most commonly found in nature, most notably in human sebum and the livers of sharks." Since demodex feed on sebum, I am wondering whether squalene is what you should use? If you are feeding demodex that surely is counter productive. But maybe the squalene you are using isn't digestable to demodex since it is 'hydrogenated'? Just thinking.
    I am still using squalane, and started using this serum again in the morning which really helps to hydrate my skin and doesn't seem to cause problems but I'm now noticing that hydrolyzed yeast extract is one of the first ingredients for some reason--I'm guessing that isn't good? This is the serum https://hylamide.deciem.com/product/...e-30ml?ccvis=1

    I might have to look for a different hyaluronic acid serum--but if the ZZ cream is killing the mites does it matter if something on my skin is potentially feeding them? Or does it work by producing conditions that starve them?

    Leave a comment:


  • Brady Barrows
    replied
    So you have completed three weeks on the ZZ cream, and your regimen of two nights on one off seems reasonable since you have dry skin. One more week should be enough to convince you that the ZZ cream is improving your issue or not. It will still take eight more weeks for clearance.

    Are you still using Squalane oil as your moisturizer? Trevi said 'supposedly fungus can't feed on it' but since Wikipedia says "While squalane can be found in small quantities in sebaceous secretions (sebum), it is squalene that is most commonly found in nature, most notably in human sebum and the livers of sharks." Since demodex feed on sebum, I am wondering whether squalene is what you should use? If you are feeding demodex that surely is counter productive. But maybe the squalane you are using isn't digestable to demodex since it is 'hydrogenated'? Just thinking.
    Last edited by Brady Barrows; 7 May 2020, 10:02 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • anemicroyalty
    replied
    Update: I think I've settled on two nights on one night off from ZZ cream for now. It's the most my skin can handle without drying out so much it hurts. I still have increased overall redness and P&Ps, though more so smaller/flatter red bumps, and definitely not as a bad as a week ago.

    This is going to sound strange but I'm pretty convinced the ZZ is darkening my skin somewhat. Something similar actually happened to me when I was a teenager and used an rx topical (stievamycin) that was way too strong for my skin and it lasted about a year (after stopping the treatment)--I remember someone telling me my foundation was streaky but I wasn't wearing any, it was just darker streaky areas from where I applied the cream. At the time someone told me it was post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation which I thought made sense, but reading about it now it seems that PIH is more like isolated small areas, not overall. I can't find any information about this at all. Does anyone have any ideas? I'm quite sure it isn't sun related, as 1 I've barely gone outside in months, 2 I'm very careful about sunscreen and 3 I don't really tan at all, just freckle. It might also be worth mentioning that that period of a year was the first time I remembering experiencing rosacea-like symptoms, because I would flush a lot with activity and heat, but instead of redness it was more of a darker/orangey flushing and my face would feel hot all over.

    I'm going to stick with it for now and will update if there are any changes.

    Leave a comment:


  • anemicroyalty
    replied
    An update: I'm pretty sure my skin is not able to tolerate ZZ cream every night; the dryness, scaling and increased sensitivity is just too much. I'm going to start regularly taking breaks and maybe even going down to just using it every other night for awhile. Hopefully this won't impact the treatment too much.

    Leave a comment:


  • Denni
    replied
    Following

    Leave a comment:


  • Rtstar
    replied
    Originally posted by Brady Barrows View Post
    Good question. Basically it depends on you. The mites move [1] so applying it all over the face makes sure you are making their surface area they may crawl to all the same. [2] Others prefer to just apply the ZZ cream to inflamed areas. Some dilute the cream with a little water so that it spreads further and easier and, of course, makes the ZZ cream last longer.

    [1] Read the subheading, The report confirms the size and movement of demodex

    [2] Why do demodex mites like human skin?
    Thank you so much, that clears things up. I think I will apply it to all oily areas but not where my cheeks have eczema. its too dry for a mite to survive there I think.

    Leave a comment:


  • anemicroyalty
    replied
    Originally posted by Brady Barrows View Post
    Scarring is usually done because of popping pimples and damaging the skin by breaking the pustules. The consensus is to be careful when it comes to popping the pimples, not withstanding Dr. Pimple.

    The possibility of 'aggravating my rosacea to a worse stage then not having it return to normal after stopping ZZ cream' is not very likely. Lets assume you were using Soolantra as ASordidGod has now switched to, after getting 'worse results' using the ZZ cream after a few days, or for that matter any patient who uses Soolantra and after a few days stops the treatment. Do you really think that stopping the Soolantra treatment that the face returns to 'normal' ?? Really?? If that was the case, everyone would have discovered that a long time ago. Take any treatment for rosacea and if it gets worse, then stop, and your skin goes back to normal.

    If you mean, does using the ZZ cream damage your skin permanently in any way, there has never been any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this has happened to anyone. Many have stopped using the ZZ cream, mainly because it gets worse before it gets better and they can't handle this and quit. The ones who stick it out usually see noticeable improvement in thirty days, and clearance in three to six months. The same is true with Soolantra. However, there are many in RF who feel the ZZ cream works better than Soolantra. Only you can know if you stick it out.

    Brady
    Thanks for the reply and the reassurance. I'm feeling quite a bit better now--my redness and papules are still worse than baseline but not by that much, and my skin is feeling a lot more comfortable and hydrated, probably because I resumed using a hyaluronic acid serum that I stopped when I started ZZ cream. I'm eager to see what the next few weeks will bring.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brady Barrows
    replied
    Scarring is usually done because of popping pimples and damaging the skin by breaking the pustules. The consensus is to be careful when it comes to popping the pimples, not withstanding Dr. Pimple.

    The possibility of 'aggravating my rosacea to a worse stage then not having it return to normal after stopping ZZ cream' is not very likely. Lets assume you were using Soolantra as ASordidGod has now switched to, after getting 'worse results' using the ZZ cream after a few days, or for that matter any patient who uses Soolantra and after a few days stops the treatment. Do you really think that stopping the Soolantra treatment that the face returns to 'normal' ?? Really?? If that was the case, everyone would have discovered that a long time ago. Take any treatment for rosacea and if it gets worse, then stop, and your skin goes back to normal.

    If you mean, does using the ZZ cream damage your skin permanently in any way, there has never been any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this has happened to anyone. Many have stopped using the ZZ cream, mainly because it gets worse before it gets better and they can't handle this and quit. The ones who stick it out usually see noticeable improvement in thirty days, and clearance in three to six months. The same is true with Soolantra. However, there are many in RF who feel the ZZ cream works better than Soolantra. Only you can know if you stick it out.

    Brady


    Originally posted by anemicroyalty View Post
    Thank you for the reply and the tip about the eyebrows, I didn't even think of that! Do you use anything for your scalp/eyelashes? I haven't really had any issues there other than some light dandruff around the hairline (which I'm now guessing is probably mite related) but I'm a bit worried about them migrating there. I just did an apple cider vinegar rinse on my scalp in the shower and used some tea tree oil cleanser on my lash area so hopefully that helps? I don't have anything else on hand.

    So I've been applying the diluted ZZ cream to my whole face and interestingly my forehead, which never had issues before, has broken out in quite a few bumps. I believe I'm having a die off reaction all over (at least I hope that's what it is) and my skin looks probably the worst it ever has. I can handle temporarily horrible skin but it is a little scary, I remember reading someone's posts here (I can't remember who now) who felt their skin was damaged by the ZZ cream and ended up worse than before and hadn't recovered even long term. I will stick with it but I did take last night off because the dryness was getting too much--is it ok to skip a night here and there? The texture of my skin has changed in an interesting way, it feels dry and tight but also somewhat smoother, softer and more tough almost--maybe it's just kind of leathery from being dry but it feels less fragile somehow. I usually have a lot of dead skin that balls up and rubs off in the shower but I don't seem to now. I'm not sure if that's just from the salicylic acid or if it's more than that. I am a bit sore, especially on my forehead, but that's also how it feels when it's dry so I'm not sure at what point I should be concerned. The overall redness has gone down a bit after taking the night off. I'm not sure if it's just my imagination but I feel like my skin overall looks a bit darker/muddier (I am naturally very pale). For what it's worth I did do a patch test to make sure I'm not allergic.

    Editing to add: Ok, to be honest I am, despite myself, freaking out a bit. I know it gets worse before it gets better but is there a chance I could be making my skin worse long-term? Could I be having an increase in pustules from anything other than die off? It does really look like I'm having all the bumps and pustules that I would in several months all at once, so I guess I would have probably had them anyway, I'm just worrying about scarring or aggravating my rosacea to a worse stage and then not having it return to normal after stopping ZZ cream. Can anyone tell me if this is a founded fear?

    A little bit more about my skin before: I wasn't actively trying to treat it but just using gentle skincare and trying to eat well (I admittedly drink a bit too much and probably sometimes have too much sugar). My flushing/general redness were a bit improved but I was starting to get more bumps that weren't huge but would linger for many weeks and leave red marks/never seemed to fully go away and would go down and reappear, though I would only ever have a few active spots at a time, usually on my cheeks. I'm 32 and a woman, if that's relevant. It might also be worth mentioning that I've had exfoliative cheilitis for most of my life, though I'm not sure if that's connected. It kind of feels like overall my skin (at least everywhere on my head) is just sheds/peels more than most people's seems to. I was also working with a naturopath for a possible systemic candida overgrowth before the quarantine started but that's kind of on hold for now. It feels to me like these things are probably all connected.

    Sorry for a ton of information, I'm not really sure what's relevant or not and my anxiety is getting the best of me.

    Leave a comment:


  • anemicroyalty
    replied
    Originally posted by redvelvet View Post
    It will be fine with the squalene oil, or a moisturizer. I would apply it to your whole face including your eyebrows, as mites tend to migrate. The flakey skin on your forehead (I'm sorry I was reading both questions- I believe that was you) should get better as well with the ZZ. I also water mine down by applying it to my wet face and dabbing the cream in spots, then rubbing it in everywhere. There is something extremely healing in the ZZ, maybe the Chinese herbs, but it really does change/improve the overall texture of your skin. Or perhaps in killing the demodex, your skin is able to heal. Die-off is good. The time frame is different for everyone. Unless you feel a sunburned or "sore" sensation, stick with it, and use at night before bed. Keep us posted.
    Thank you for the reply and the tip about the eyebrows, I didn't even think of that! Do you use anything for your scalp/eyelashes? I haven't really had any issues there other than some light dandruff around the hairline (which I'm now guessing is probably mite related) but I'm a bit worried about them migrating there. I just did an apple cider vinegar rinse on my scalp in the shower and used some tea tree oil cleanser on my lash area so hopefully that helps? I don't have anything else on hand.

    So I've been applying the diluted ZZ cream to my whole face and interestingly my forehead, which never had issues before, has broken out in quite a few bumps. I believe I'm having a die off reaction all over (at least I hope that's what it is) and my skin looks probably the worst it ever has. I can handle temporarily horrible skin but it is a little scary, I remember reading someone's posts here (I can't remember who now) who felt their skin was damaged by the ZZ cream and ended up worse than before and hadn't recovered even long term. I will stick with it but I did take last night off because the dryness was getting too much--is it ok to skip a night here and there? The texture of my skin has changed in an interesting way, it feels dry and tight but also somewhat smoother, softer and more tough almost--maybe it's just kind of leathery from being dry but it feels less fragile somehow. I usually have a lot of dead skin that balls up and rubs off in the shower but I don't seem to now. I'm not sure if that's just from the salicylic acid or if it's more than that. I am a bit sore, especially on my forehead, but that's also how it feels when it's dry so I'm not sure at what point I should be concerned. The overall redness has gone down a bit after taking the night off. I'm not sure if it's just my imagination but I feel like my skin overall looks a bit darker/muddier (I am naturally very pale). For what it's worth I did do a patch test to make sure I'm not allergic.

    Editing to add: Ok, to be honest I am, despite myself, freaking out a bit. I know it gets worse before it gets better but is there a chance I could be making my skin worse long-term? Could I be having an increase in pustules from anything other than die off? It does really look like I'm having all the bumps and pustules that I would in several months all at once, so I guess I would have probably had them anyway, I'm just worrying about scarring or aggravating my rosacea to a worse stage and then not having it return to normal after stopping ZZ cream. Can anyone tell me if this is a founded fear?

    A little bit more about my skin before: I wasn't actively trying to treat it but just using gentle skincare and trying to eat well (I admittedly drink a bit too much and probably sometimes have too much sugar). My flushing/general redness were a bit improved but I was starting to get more bumps that weren't huge but would linger for many weeks and leave red marks/never seemed to fully go away and would go down and reappear, though I would only ever have a few active spots at a time, usually on my cheeks. I'm 32 and a woman, if that's relevant. It might also be worth mentioning that I've had exfoliative cheilitis for most of my life, though I'm not sure if that's connected. It kind of feels like overall my skin (at least everywhere on my head) is just sheds/peels more than most people's seems to. I was also working with a naturopath for a possible systemic candida overgrowth before the quarantine started but that's kind of on hold for now. It feels to me like these things are probably all connected.

    Sorry for a ton of information, I'm not really sure what's relevant or not and my anxiety is getting the best of me.
    Last edited by anemicroyalty; 24 April 2020, 12:08 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brady Barrows
    replied
    Originally posted by Rtstar View Post
    do you recommend using it on the entire face or just the affected area? I prefer to only use it on my nose and apples of my cheeks because I'm very sensitive but if I do that then would it be effective?
    Good question. Basically it depends on you. The mites move [1] so applying it all over the face makes sure you are making their surface area they may crawl to all the same. [2] Others prefer to just apply the ZZ cream to inflamed areas. Some dilute the cream with a little water so that it spreads further and easier and, of course, makes the ZZ cream last longer.

    [1] Read the subheading, The report confirms the size and movement of demodex

    [2] Why do demodex mites like human skin?
    Last edited by Brady Barrows; 23 April 2020, 01:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rtstar
    replied
    Originally posted by Brady Barrows View Post
    As mentioned before, It Gets Worse Before It Gets Better, and this is not uncommon in medical treatments, such as in treating acne, which the Mayo Clinic states, "With most prescription acne drugs, you may not see results for four to eight weeks, and your skin may get worse before it gets better. It can take many months or years for your acne to clear up completely," or in immunotherapy.

    While some medical treatments do improve a medical issue and it does NOT get worse before its gets better, in such treatments the issue just gets better, and of course, that is what is the ideal medical treatment, but in some cases it simply gets worse before it gets better. If you ever find a treatment for your rosacea that immediately improves your rosacea, we are all ears to learn about it.

    Of course, if one has a very bad case of rosacea and the doctor prescribes high dose antibiotics, usually the rosacea improves. However, when antibiotic treatment stops, the rosacea usually returns with a vengeance, so obviously, while it does improve rosacea it certainly isn't curing it.

    With Soolantra or the ZZ cream it takes twelve weeks for clearance but you should see improvement in four weeks.
    do you recommend using it on the entire face or just the affected area? I prefer to only use it on my nose and apples of my cheeks because I'm very sensitive but if I do that then would it be effective?

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X