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My rosacea flushings almost gone (chili cream)

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  • My rosacea flushings almost gone (chili cream)

    I think I have to write, because this can be helpful some of you. I wrote last April how I started using homemade chili cream on my face (subtybe 1 rosacea):

    https://rosaceagroup.org/The_Rosacea...070#post333070

    I noticed fairly rapid reduction in flushings. I got burning feeling for a couple of weeks when I went to the sauna and when I exercised intensively, but suprisingly it didn’t caused any redness, I was actually quite pale even in sauna.
    After about two weeks chili with sauna or exercise has not caused a burning feeling. So tolerate increased. My conclusion is that chili (capsaicin) affect some receptors in a way that prevents vascular expansion. Read ”warm room theory”:

    https://rosaceagroup.org/The_Rosacea...ide-Y-Flushing

    Since April, flushings has not been a particularly big problem for me. I've mainly forgotten whole disease. Under a year ago this would been only unrealistic fantasia. I flushed regularly for 10 years all kind of situations and all the time.
    Sometimes I get feeling my face is very red, but when I see myself in the mirror I always see my face colour is normal or only slightly red. All this has greatly reduced my stress levels, which of course further increases the positive effects.
    It's hard to say will this work same way others, but I think I cannot be the only one who benefits.

    I have also used chili to improve digestion (it can be helpful even for ibs). Notice: capsaicin is also pain reducer in hospitals.

    So, I use about half teaspoon fine chili powder and I mix it with about 15g face cream. I use cream of eczema. I get suitable colour adding little bit this:

    https://fi.iherb.com/pr/p/65440

    In my face this cream is invisible and very light. I do not feel it all.

    I have had lot of gut problems (leaky gut, sibo, ibs) and taking care of these has also very central role. For about one month I have comply sibo-ibs diet and I finished all dairy and all grains (also rice, millet etc.). This has helped my acid reflux and I think it’s helpful also manner of rosacea.

    But I underscore chili cream was the biggest change case of rosacea flushings.

    It's quite ironic that ten years I looking for cooling cream and the answer is chili based face cream

  • #2
    Hey Sepi, how has your Rosacea been since you started applying the chili cream?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Brooks View Post
      Hey Sepi, how has your Rosacea been since you started applying the chili cream?
      Hello, Sorry for this very late reply. I used chilicream for over a year and then I felt that I no longer needed it. Flushing episodes was so clearly reduced.
      Over a month ago I started to notice the increased sensitivity to redness again. I believe season explains a lot: in Finland is now autumn and it is colder outside than indoors. So like the warm room theory says redness occurs more easily / intensely when you move colder to warmer (neuropeptide activation or something). There could be also some other reasons, maybe in a gut microbiome. I also have felt that moderate summer sun exposure is good provided that I use good sunscreen (I use mineral sunscreen 30 SPF).

      So I re-introduced the homemade chilicream. With chili I'm using this cream nowadays https://www.laboratoires-biarritz.co...sunscreen.html

      Chilicream makes sometimes my cheeks a bit pink, apparently due to increased blood circulation. This may sound bad, but it is good in the end because the blood vessels do not ”explode” open in a same way like rebound flushing does. Maybe this is bit like lymphatic system – it needs good flow.
      The most challenging part is finding the right tone. Chilipowders are different in color and some are finer than others. I crush the powder as finely as possible by pressing it with a spoon.

      Chilicream gives me a slight tingling sensation which is actually nice feeling. Then I know that the flushing is well under control.
      I also use chilicapsules after big meals. You can buy empty capsules and add chilipowder to it.

      Like I say earlier it’s intresting how my chilicovered face burns in a sauna but I’m very little red. I use extra hot chilicream but I don’t recommend it if you try this method first time!

      Comment


      • #4
        This is interesting. Has anyone else on the forum tried this?

        Comment


        • #5
          Chilli Cream for Flushing

          Hey,

          the mechanism by which the chilli-cream is working could be like this: the active ingredient, capsaicin, is a agonist for TRPV1-Channel. Researchers found that espacially the Subtype 1 showes increased densitiy for TRPV1, TRPV2 and TRPV4. These non selective Calcium Channels are expressed on different cell-types, sensory nerves, epithelial cells, keratinocytes etc. They are activated by various stimulus, like heat, cold, certain food, etc.
          Furthermore the researchers think, that these channels, are also sensitized, so that an exogenous stimulus (heat, cold, certain food) can easily activate them, which leads to increased release of neuropeptides like Substance P, GCRP, VIP and PACAP. It is known that espacially CGRP and PACAP function as potent vasodilators, which explains the flushing. It was also found, that their concentration is increased in rosacea skin.

          What sepi did by his experiment seems paradoxical, because he applied a direct activator of the TRPV1 Channel on his face. In the short term, this also leads to the expected reactions like burning and flushing but in the long term the TRPV1 Channels get desensitized, so that the exogeneous Stimuli cannot activate them that easily. The effect is that the skin is more resistent to trigger factors which cause flushing. The problem is, and Sepi experienced this, is that the desensitation is reversible, so you have to apply the capsaicin regularly.

          Sepi, thank you very much for your self experiment. This motivates me to start it too, but i will use a 0.75 % Capsaicin cream only on one side of my face. How much did your flushing decrease? And does it decrease any kind of flushing ore only a specific one?

          Comment


          • #6
            I want to say my experience here. I deal with flushing/burning esp. in evening. I put on 0.025% capsaicin topical on one side of face for 2 weeks, 2x / day. And then a later trial of 5x/day for 2 weeks. The initial days were bad, I want to emphasize this. I acclimated to the application of the cream esp. if i applied it in morning.

            It helped with external heat tolerance, but made the evening flares and afternoon flares worse. It sounds like one of those things that's good in theory, but overall not helpful for me.

            I do get botox which helps me with the neurogenic inflammation - esp. the "time of day" flares. So I was hoping i'd respond to the capsaicin

            Comment


            • #7
              I think that the initial worsening with respect to flushing is completely normal because, as i mentioned, capsaicin is an agonist for the TRPV1 Channel and only the long term treatment should lead to desensitation / denervation. If you look at any recent publication dealing with the pathophysiology of rosacea, you will find always the TRPV-Channels involved. Of course every person is different and reacts different to various stimuli but this could be due to a different dirstribution of the different TRPV-Channels.
              I personally will start with this self experiment, because there is so much evidence for the involvement of these Channels. It seems that their dysregulation / increased density is the root for neurogenic inflammation.
              Some researchers from galderma found good improvment for patients suffering from subtype 1, who were treated with capsaicin-cream, as shown in this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140031341
              I think they didnt go any further because capsaicin is already on the market, so that they wouldn`t profit from any further investigation.


              So laser_cat after you stopped the treatment, did your flushing reduced to the pre-treatment level?

              Comment


              • #8
                It took ~2 weeks to return to baseline after a 2 week use, but I feel I was lucky in that regard. I want to stress that I only did this with derm guidance. I also did it while also on mexiletine, botox, low dose propranolol - I could not tolerate the application when I had tried it without. My thought is it might induce more inflammation than someone can handle, eg trying to repair the insult on the nerves, or as a consequence of extra blood flow. (eg maybe inflammation is responsible for the TRVP1 sensitivity in the first place, and TRPV1 is less the driver). In erythromelalgia case studies, it is sometimes helpful, sometimes not, and sometimes loses effect. There is a topical TRPV1 blocker coming out soon -PAC‐14028 -for atopic dermatitis that I'm pushing to try.

                I actually never acclimate to oral supplements like curcumin, piperine, capsaicin tea (feel like continual attacks on nerves). Nasal capsaicin was mildly effective until it fried / inflamed my nasal passages.
                Last edited by laser_cat; 24 March 2020, 04:33 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  What could be an explanation for your bad experience with capsaicin is maybe a disruption in skin barrier function. Sepi mentioned that he tolerated the cream well. Did you notice a dried skin while using capsaicin?
                  You mentioned your heat tolerance improved. Does that mean it was harder to flush with warm temperatures?

                  The benefit of capsaicin treatment is that it not only desensitizes the TRPV1 Channel but also TRPA1 in an indirect way. These channels are thought to be responsible for the neurogenic inflammation. If they are activated, they release neuropeptides which leads to vasodilation and edema. They are also able to degranulate mast cells, which release histamine and serotonin. Histamine acts also as a vasodilator and can bind to histamine receptors on sensory nerves, resulting in a further release of neuropeptides. This mechanism is a bidirectional loop which potentiates the neurogenic inflammation.

                  But using a TRPV1 antagonist could be indeed an alternativ for patients with a hypersensitiv skin. Another strategy involves the use of PACAP-Receptor inhibitors, but this will still take some time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sepi View Post
                    Hello, Sorry for this very late reply. I used chilicream for over a year and then I felt that I no longer needed it. Flushing episodes was so clearly reduced.
                    Over a month ago I started to notice the increased sensitivity to redness again. I believe season explains a lot: in Finland is now autumn and it is colder outside than indoors. So like the warm room theory says redness occurs more easily / intensely when you move colder to warmer (neuropeptide activation or something). There could be also some other reasons, maybe in a gut microbiome. I also have felt that moderate summer sun exposure is good provided that I use good sunscreen (I use mineral sunscreen 30 SPF).

                    So I re-introduced the homemade chilicream. With chili I'm using this cream nowadays https://www.laboratoires-biarritz.co...sunscreen.html

                    Chilicream makes sometimes my cheeks a bit pink, apparently due to increased blood circulation. This may sound bad, but it is good in the end because the blood vessels do not ”explode” open in a same way like rebound flushing does. Maybe this is bit like lymphatic system – it needs good flow.
                    The most challenging part is finding the right tone. Chilipowders are different in color and some are finer than others. I crush the powder as finely as possible by pressing it with a spoon.

                    Chilicream gives me a slight tingling sensation which is actually nice feeling. Then I know that the flushing is well under control.
                    I also use chilicapsules after big meals. You can buy empty capsules and add chilipowder to it.

                    Like I say earlier it’s intresting how my chilicovered face burns in a sauna but I’m very little red. I use extra hot chilicream but I don’t recommend it if you try this method first time!
                    Can you post the directions exactly how you made the cream, and what type of Chili powder you used.
                    I have recently used a product called Capsinol, it is a capsaicin nasal spray but it doesn't say what strength, I bought the extra strong versions. Early days yet but it definitely stops my nose becoming stuffy during a big nose flush.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My skin itself is fine / a non-issue; I tolerated the cream fine
                      Yes, flushing / burning threshold was raised in terms of external heat (not social flaring, or night flaring - which were worse). This makes a little sense in hindsight, as I can see sensory nerves being less able to register the heat, so less of a response. The social flaring I think involves overactive sympathetic nerves, possibly induced by local inflammation in severe cases. The night flaring - might start with a type of inflammation that peaks at night (my guess) and/or parasympathetic vasodilation.

                      I think skin barrier is only one possible source of inflammation. Others I can think of are: systemic autoimmune diseases, demodex, TMD or arthritis of jaw, contribution from an inflamed thyroid / hashimoto's .. In particular from what I understand, damaged nerves will induce a local inflammatory response (Schwann cells etc..) by an unknown signal. This inflammation could cause vasodilation in its own right, sensitize the nerves, etc.
                      I think there is so much yet unknown, that unless there are published papers backing capsaicin/rosacea up, I would personally qualify it as a risk. Laser is also supposed to help in theory - and yet there is at 1 least publication cautioning that it can stir up more inflammation than it can help things. (not to mention the disaster of the Mirvaso/vasoconstriction theory) The capsaicin theory says that all TRPV1+ small fibers should be defunctionalized - but I can see it being stochastic and possibly defunctionalizing some, while partially activating some. Or inducing too much damage on the vasculature before anything gets to a stable point. etc. I am not saying don't try it, just that I wish I had read an account like mine before I tried (esp. the 5x/day frequency) to know that there might not be a light at the end of the tunnel.
                      My doctor was very excited when I said I would try it - but he acknowledged that he didn't know for sure what would happen.

                      Best
                      Last edited by laser_cat; 2 April 2020, 03:02 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Its interesting that your flushing threshold was raised by capsaicin and I totally agree with your explanation for that. Maybe your social/evening flushes are not caused by a dysfunction of TRP-Channels, but i cant explain why they got worse.

                        I am applying capsaicin-cream (0.075 %) once daily now on the right side of my face for 10 days now. In the beginning, the cream caused massive vasodilation, an increased blood flow and a burning sensation for an hour. Now, after ten days of use, the burning after apllication starts to decrease in intensity but the erythema still persists.
                        My pre-treatment flushing didnt worsen. I noticed yesterday, that when my face started to flush, the untreated side flushed slightly more then the treated side, but the difference is not that significant.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by IllyrianEagle View Post
                          Its interesting that your flushing threshold was raised by capsaicin and I totally agree with your explanation for that. Maybe your social/evening flushes are not caused by a dysfunction of TRP-Channels, but i cant explain why they got worse.

                          I am applying capsaicin-cream (0.075 %) once daily now on the right side of my face for 10 days now. In the beginning, the cream caused massive vasodilation, an increased blood flow and a burning sensation for an hour. Now, after ten days of use, the burning after apllication starts to decrease in intensity but the erythema still persists.
                          My pre-treatment flushing didnt worsen. I noticed yesterday, that when my face started to flush, the untreated side flushed slightly more then the treated side, but the difference is not that significant.
                          So how is it going so far?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by IllyrianEagle View Post
                            Its interesting that your flushing threshold was raised by capsaicin and I totally agree with your explanation for that. Maybe your social/evening flushes are not caused by a dysfunction of TRP-Channels, but i cant explain why they got worse.

                            I am applying capsaicin-cream (0.075 %) once daily now on the right side of my face for 10 days now. In the beginning, the cream caused massive vasodilation, an increased blood flow and a burning sensation for an hour. Now, after ten days of use, the burning after apllication starts to decrease in intensity but the erythema still persists.
                            My pre-treatment flushing didnt worsen. I noticed yesterday, that when my face started to flush, the untreated side flushed slightly more then the treated side, but the difference is not that significant.
                            Hello, any updates on your progress?

                            Comment

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