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  • #61
    I highly doubt that. Firstly, what would be his motivation for not disclosing climbazole in the ingredients? The overwhelming majority of his customers wouldn't try dissolving climbazole on their own and would buy his product anyway, simply due to the fact that the DIY approach doesn't appeal to the average consumer. Secondly, climbazole doesn't remain dissolved in MCT oil for very long, so precipitation would be clearly visible after a few weeks. My bottle of BIOM8 oil that I ordered many months ago is in a green-tinted transparent bottle, so precipitation would be fairly easy to see, and there isn't any.

    How BIOM8 oil works for some people is a mystery, but it didn't work for me, and it didn't even cause the initial "flare-up" of the skin's inflammatory response that I experienced when I actually started using climbazole, which is further evidence to me that BIOM8 oil does not contain it.

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    • #62
      What I wrote is only my suspicion and of course may not be true. But if it did not work for you and climbazole does then it may as well not be true. I just find it very strange how this formula supposedly works so well for SD. Plus it contains "bad" oils.

      As far as precipitation goes, me and donmattus both observed how it sometimes does not occur in MCT oil but we still haven't figured out why.

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      • #63
        Another theory although it may be a little out there;

        if dandruff is caused by M. globosa and M. restricta rather than M. furfur (which I always thought was the cause) and it has been shown that 0.1% linoleic acid (C18:2) as well as 0.1% linolenic acid (C18:3) are able to inhibit M. globosa as well as M.restricta could it be possible that the product is just a blend of MCT oil and sea buckthorn oil and has a total content of 0.1% linoleic acid and 0.1% linolenic acid?

        Sea buckthorn seed oil is the highest in C18:2 and C18:3 fatty acids and their ratio is almost 1:1. It also cointains Tocopherols which are listed in the ingredients list.

        Could it explain why the product doesn't work for people who's SD is caused my M.furfur (if this is even possible)? Tom, what do you think?

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        • #64
          Hi savino, I think an active ingredient antifungal (climbazole) is necessary because the body's natural sebum is constantly providing a wide range of food sources for malassezia, so it doesn't matter which subtype is present. We can't expect to starve out malassezia by applying only a particular oil.

          That's why no one can repeat, in vivo, an in vitro experiment that focuses on one particular type of oil as an active antifungal. The best we can do is use oils in the range were malassezia doesn't obtain a food source from the oil, like C8, C10, and C22 and upward.

          It seems unlikely that BioM8 will provide any advantage, if all it does is deliver one type of oil in the C18 range. Plus, the ingredients in BioM8 don't seem to be properly disclosed. We shouldn't have to guess what's in it.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by savino View Post
            What I wrote is only my suspicion and of course may not be true. But if it did not work for you and climbazole does then it may as well not be true. I just find it very strange how this formula supposedly works so well for SD. Plus it contains "bad" oils.
            Climbazole worked only to an extent. I applied it daily for over a year. During the initial stages, it increased redness and flaking all over my face, which I interpreted as a sign that it was doing its job, since Tom mentioned that it works by breaking down the fungal walls and exposing Malassezia to the body's immune system. It did manage to heal some areas of my face, such as the sides of my nose and glabella (area between my eyebrows). However, it was ineffective for the more stubborn areas in my moustache and beard.

            The fact that climbazole worked in some areas but not others led me to theorise that these more stubborn areas were protected within layers of biofilms which the climbazole wasn't penetrating, and my regimen lacked a biofilm-dissolving component (a role xylitol was unable to fulfil, because I've used that for as long as I've used climbazole). Since then, I've discovered that acetic acid (in white vinegar) effectively dissolves biofilms, which, now having used it in conjunction with climbazole, has essentially kickstarted the same healing process in these stubborn areas (which means an initial flare-up of redness and flaking, like the other areas of my face had previously experienced).

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            • #66
              From what I've gathered, Michael (the guy behind BIOM8 Oil) believes that caprylic acid (the free fatty acid) has anti-fungal properties and is effective against Malassezia, which is why he mentioned in his email to me that he includes in his formula not only "capric/caprylic triglycerides" (aka MCT oil) but also "caprylic triglycerides" in isolation. That said, there's still a big difference between formulating with the triglycerides and the free fatty acid itself, because it's unknown how much of the triglyceride is broken down into its free fatty acid form after application to the skin. Perhaps if a formula included caprylic acid in isolation it would prove effective, but I've never seen this as an ingredient anywhere (unlike other free fatty acids like stearic acid, linoleic acid, palmitic acid, etc., which I have seen in ingredients lists many times).

              Another important distinction between caprylic acid in its free fatty acid form and its triglyceride form, which has been mentioned previously in this thread, is that the former smells slightly rancid, like goats. The same goes for capric acid. Their triglyceride forms, by contrast, are odourless (which is why MCT oil doesn't smell like anything). Of course in a formulation I imagine this smell could be offset by the inclusion of other ingredients.
              Last edited by sejon; 24 September 2017, 09:14 AM.

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              • #67
                For obvious reasons I cannot post the full document but in this study free fatty acids C:6, C:8, and C:10 were tested against four malassezia strains and all of them had an antimicrobial effect with C:8 being the most effective. The MIC (mmol/l) for C:8 tested against M. furfur is 17.5.

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                • #68
                  I believe Michael might have cited that very study in a post he made explaining his rationale behind BIOM8 Oil. But to iterate, it's referring to the free fatty acid specifically. If it were effective in triglyceride form, then just plain old MCT oil would be enough to treat Malassezia conditions, but it clearly isn't. He clarified in his email to me that it only contains the triglycerides, despite the ingredients list erroneously referring to them as the fatty acids. But this is still the closest estimation to any possible mechanism of action that BIOM8 oil might have.

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                  • #69
                    Thanks for replying to my posts sejon. I noticed that also, the ingredients are labeled as free fatty acids except for sea buckthorn oil. If my calculations are correct 17.5 mmol/l of caprylic acid is 0.25mg/l or 0.25%. I am still not sure about this theory though because pure caprylic acid seems to be very hazardous but maybe not in such small concentrations. I guess the question how exactly is it incorporated into the product, if it is even possible.

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                    • #70
                      He labelled them as free fatty acids but that was a mislabelling, which prompted me to email him several months ago, and he agreed that labelling them as such was inaccurate. He said he had changed the labels on new bottles to list them as triglycerides, and would update the ingredients list displayed on the website as well. However, many months after our correspondence, he still hasn't changed the ingredients list on his website. To me this is rather disconcerting, because if I were to make and sell a product I would give higher priority to ensuring that the ingredients are accurately listed, for the sake of honesty and transparency. Apparently he isn't so concerned with that.

                      Other free fatty acids, like stearic, oleic, and linoleic acids, are not uncommon in topical products. For example, the Sebodiane DS serum contains linoleic acid at 2.5% concentration. I don't know how caprylic acid differs, but I imagine it isn't harmful in low concentrations, like the other fatty acids.

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                      • #71
                        Has anyone gotten biom8 lab tested? The creator seems like a genuine and trustworthy person, but I wouldn't put it past anyone to do something unethical for a few bucks.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by ypmdex View Post
                          Has anyone gotten biom8 lab tested? The creator seems like a genuine and trustworthy person, but I wouldn't put it past anyone to do something unethical for a few bucks.
                          I went to the website. Where is the test? Not sure what you are talking about.
                          Brady Barrows
                          Blog - Join the RRDi


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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Brady Barrows View Post
                            I went to the website. Where is the test? Not sure what you are talking about.
                            There was an accusation earlier in this thread that biom8 is so effective because it contains steroids. People have also expressed a more general concern that the ingredients have not been accurately disclosed.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ypmdex View Post
                              There was an accusation earlier in this thread that biom8 is so effective because it contains steroids. People have also expressed a more general concern that the ingredients have not been accurately disclosed.
                              thanks for the clarification. On the website FAQs, one is, "Do any of the formulations contain steroids?"
                              "None of the BIOM8 formulations contain steroids. All the ingredients are presented on the ingredients label."

                              Is there really evidence that the above isn't true? I doubt it.
                              The ingredients for the oil:
                              Ingredients: Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Tricaprylin (Caprylic Triglyceride), Hippophae Rhamnoids (Sea Buckthorn) Seed Oil, Tocopherol (Vitamin E)
                              Ingredients for the spray:
                              Ingredients: Purified Water, Lactobacillus1, Lactobacillus2, Arginine, Coconut Fruit Extract

                              The ingredients do not specify the amounts or percentages since that would disclose the formula, which then any could use to make. Coca Cola lists the ingredients but doesn't disclose the formula. You can understand why the maker of Biom8 wouldn't disclose the formula, but is required to list the ingredients.
                              Last edited by Brady Barrows; 1 April 2018, 06:51 AM.
                              Brady Barrows
                              Blog - Join the RRDi


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                              • #75
                                Found this on the Biom8 website, which is difficult to find, a book by the web site owner, Michael Anders.
                                seborrheic-dermatitis-owners-manual-michael-anders.jpg
                                Brady Barrows
                                Blog - Join the RRDi


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