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  • Originally posted by Starlite View Post
    Are you serious? Did you really just scold the people who have had their emotions toyed with by expert marketing manipulators who took people on an emotional roller coaster for years, as they baited their hooks with well placed press releases and internet "rumors" about this miracle drug, until people were begging, no, demanding that they have access to this medication, only to come away from their first attempts at using it with what appears to be a worsened situation and dashed hopes? Every step of this game is played by the Big Boys and they don't mess around. They spend money on professionals who know how to "manage" humans through their deep primal fears and needs. Core primitive drives are played and played like a maestro. No one is immune. Dirty tricks like making something hard to get and rare, hinting for years that a product is on the way, like deeply establishing that "they" are the experts and the uneducated lowly masses have no idea what they might be talking about and how dare you lowlies question them.. etc.. etc.. ANYTHING to engender emotionality and childhood states of mind, and leave rational assessment behind because when you are in your primal brain, they win.

    This stuff has been studied and deployed since the turn of the last century.. They know what they are doing and it works very well. The Delphi Technique .... Edward Bernays and the Art of Public Manipulation - video

    You are however right that, "If you accept the treatment you are responsible for the consequences." No one else has to live with and suffer with them.
    Agree!
    My rosacea related blog: http://scarletnat.blogspot.com/2012/...edication.html

    Comment


    • And there are more threads than this one, where people have reported their Mirvaso experiences. The fact that so many people (look at it in %, not in simple numbers, now that it's still so new and so few people have been able to test it yet) have reported the rebound worsening is an indication that we can expect this to happen a lot more often in the future. Yes, every drug has side effects. Oracea makes me worse when I take it, but as soon as I stop taking it again, the redness subsides. The difference is that Mirvaso seems to stir up the flushing and redness to an extreme level, and some have this for days or weeks on end. Heck, some not even know if they will get back to their baseline redness at this point. That is pretty shocking and outraging to some people here, given the way Mirvaso is presented and the way the side effects are presented. This seems like Russian roulette in that aspect, and it makes people very angry, because this product is, like Starlite said, HYPED for years and years. Its shocking, because this rebound is so severe (and I lived through it, that makes it different from reading about it and making inventories with all respect), that its shicking for some how such a product made it through the FDA tests without any serious warning attached to it.
      The fact that such a high % of people reported this significant rebound, is an indication that its no coincidence, because the majority of them also wrote that they were no severe flushers to start with. That they seems the posterboy/-girl for this product. If this product is so fantastic and working so well, surely we will hear more from those people in the future. Or so we may hope; when you suffer for a long time and find something that makes you pale again, you'd hope and assume that more people write a positive review? Despite the self centered, selfish society we seem to live in
      My rosacea related blog: http://scarletnat.blogspot.com/2012/...edication.html

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Brady Barrows View Post
        Whew! I went through the 80 pages of this thread and here are the official results so far (and searching in some other threads):

        3 Positive Reports
        This warrants further discussion.

        -Jaygee later stated that he was not sure Mirvaso was really helping. "Now for the last week or so I have been using the very smallest amount, like hardly any but just a little on my face. I don't get any rebound, but to be honest I'm not sure if the results are there either."

        -GreenGables stated that he/she did have rebounds, but that they were largely tolerable.

        In my opinion, this would not be consistent with success (as advertised). This seem to be more of a pseudo-success.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Starlite View Post
          Are you serious? Did you really just scold the people who have had their emotions toyed with by expert marketing manipulators who took people on an emotional roller coaster for years, as they baited their hooks with well placed press releases and internet "rumors" about this miracle drug, until people were begging, no, demanding that they have access to this medication, only to come away from their first attempts at using it with what appears to be a worsened situation and dashed hopes? Every step of this game is played by the Big Boys and they don't mess around. They spend money on professionals who know how to "manage" humans through their deep primal fears and needs. Core primitive drives are played and played like a maestro. No one is immune. Dirty tricks like making something hard to get and rare, hinting for years that a product is on the way, like deeply establishing that "they" are the experts and the uneducated lowly masses have no idea what they might be talking about and how dare you lowlies question them.. etc.. etc.. ANYTHING to engender emotionality and childhood states of mind, and leave rational assessment behind because when you are in your primal brain, they win.

          This stuff has been studied and deployed since the turn of the last century.. They know what they are doing and it works very well. The Delphi Technique .... Edward Bernays and the Art of Public Manipulation - video

          You are however right that, "If you accept the treatment you are responsible for the consequences." No one else has to live with and suffer with them.
          Starlite,

          I understand your frustration with the American Medical Care System, which is going through such a mess right now with trying to care for those who do not have medical insurance and the connection to making a profit as you have pointed out with many of your posts. But the problems with the medical care system, pharmaceutical companies, research and development of new treatments, are just a reflection and reminder of man's bigger problems. As you point out in this post, what everyone wants is a 'miracle drug' and as you also point out, man has tried to treat rosacea for over a hundred years with no such miracle ever happening. It is naive to think that a miracle drug is just around the corner. There is a possibility that those with severe skin conditions, such as steroid rosacea or severe cases of rosacea (or a rosacea mimic) might be able to be treated with either the current standard treatments or one of the new recently released treatments for some.

          I personally do not use prescription treatments to control my rosacea because I experienced the side effects of long term antibiotic use and will not accept them. The facts are that Mirvaso does help some. But it is not the miracle drug everyone is dreaming about. I personally agree with you that the system needs to be changed, but the reality is that it its entrenched and backed up with power and money.

          You can continue your crusade and try to beat the giant dragon or you could try to work with the it, which is what I am trying to do with the RRDi. However, volunteering isn't for everyone. This forum is for those who want to remain anonymous in their crusades.

          All I am pointing out is that this thread is more about the frustration of the medical system and the profit motive rather than on Mirvaso user reviews. It took me hours to search through 80 pages to actually find user reviews. But I volunteered my time to do this because I find it interesting to actually pull all the comments out and list them for other rosacea sufferers to read for themselves. Most would not take the time to go through the 80 pages of this thread, unless they love reading about how bad this entire medical system is and add more frustrating comments about it.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by hozer2k View Post
            This warrants further discussion.

            -Jaygee later stated that he was not sure Mirvaso was really helping. "Now for the last week or so I have been using the very smallest amount, like hardly any but just a little on my face. I don't get any rebound, but to be honest I'm not sure if the results are there either."

            -GreenGables stated that he/she did have rebounds, but that they were largely tolerable.

            In my opinion, this would not be consistent with success (as advertised). This seem to be more of a pseudo-success.
            hozer2k,

            Thanks for pointing this out. Can you provide the sources of the posts to show the changes?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Birdie View Post
              Hi Brady, thank you for doing this work. Essentially I agree with your assessment of the responsibility
              On the part of the user of prescription drugs. It is essential to be informed of side effects and risk. I'm
              Not sure though if the comparison of Oracea and mirvaso is a balanced one in this case. While oracea
              Aggravated some users gut flora or simply did not work, mirvaso's side effects is revealed directly
              On the face-- making the rosacea/flushing worse than baseline. And, only time will reveal if the damage
              Done is irreversible or not. Best regards, birdie
              You do have a good point Birdie, but you also point out it depends on if the side effect is 'irreversible or not.' The initial reports coming out from most of the users is that in time the rebound effect lessons and the flushing, which is of more concern is reduced over time. However, if you consider the issues related to antibiotic resistance, bacterial overgrowth, and gut problems I think long term low dose antibiotic risks are on a par with the risk of using Mirvaso.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by nat007 View Post
                And there are more threads than this one, where people have reported their Mirvaso experiences. The fact that so many people (look at it in %, not in simple numbers, now that it's still so new and so few people have been able to test it yet) have reported the rebound worsening is an indication that we can expect this to happen a lot more often in the future. Yes, every drug has side effects. Oracea makes me worse when I take it, but as soon as I stop taking it again, the redness subsides. The difference is that Mirvaso seems to stir up the flushing and redness to an extreme level, and some have this for days or weeks on end. Heck, some not even know if they will get back to their baseline redness at this point. That is pretty shocking and outraging to some people here, given the way Mirvaso is presented and the way the side effects are presented. This seems like Russian roulette in that aspect, and it makes people very angry, because this product is, like Starlite said, HYPED for years and years. Its shocking, because this rebound is so severe (and I lived through it, that makes it different from reading about it and making inventories with all respect), that its shicking for some how such a product made it through the FDA tests without any serious warning attached to it.
                The fact that such a high % of people reported this significant rebound, is an indication that its no coincidence, because the majority of them also wrote that they were no severe flushers to start with. That they seems the posterboy/-girl for this product. If this product is so fantastic and working so well, surely we will hear more from those people in the future. Or so we may hope; when you suffer for a long time and find something that makes you pale again, you'd hope and assume that more people write a positive review? Despite the self centered, selfish society we seem to live in

                Hi nat007,

                When you say you 'lived through it' does this mean you tried Mirvaso? Somehow I missed your post on your experience with Mirvaso to add you to the list.

                Comment


                • Hi Brady,

                  well.. I tried brimonidine, in the same % and under instructions from my pharmacist mixed with water to get the 0,33% (I think it was) dilution of Mirvaso. I understand that it's not counted by members here as a real Mirvaso trial, but the effects were the same as described here and should reflect the Mirvaso effect, as it mimics it and has the same active ingredient. It is probably only useful here as another confirmation that some get bad rebound flushing from the brimonidine of Mirvaso, and not so much of value as a true Mirvaso experience. But the rebound was really awful and some of the worst most painful aggressive flushing I ever had, and it seems quite some other users here reported something similar.

                  thanks for your efforts to get some more grip on the Mirvaso experiences here.
                  My rosacea related blog: http://scarletnat.blogspot.com/2012/...edication.html

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by nat007 View Post
                    Hi Brady,

                    well.. I tried brimonidine, in the same % and under instructions from my pharmacist mixed with water to get the 0,33% (I think it was) dilution of Mirvaso. I understand that it's not counted by members here as a real Mirvaso trial, but the effects were the same as described here and should reflect the Mirvaso effect, as it mimics it and has the same active ingredient. It is probably only useful here as another confirmation that some get bad rebound flushing from the brimonidine of Mirvaso, and not so much of value as a true Mirvaso experience. But the rebound was really awful and some of the worst most painful aggressive flushing I ever had, and it seems quite some other users here reported something similar.

                    thanks for your efforts to get some more grip on the Mirvaso experiences here.
                    Thanks Nat. That explains it. Somewhere in this thread is the clinical paper mentioned on how 25% of those treated with brimonidine had allergic reactions when treated for glaucoma. The paper is mentioned in the end notes on my Mirvaso post. It would not be surprising that a similar percentage would be allergic to Mirvaso.

                    Comment


                    • Jaygee later commented:


                      I was mistaken about Greengables. The comments have been very positive from him/her so that is definitely a positive. I was confusing this user with someone else, oops.

                      Comment


                      • The proof will be in the pudding with mirvaso. People may buy it once but if they experience these negative effects they will not buy again. I will be very surprised if there is a massive group of people out there getting good results and keeping it to themselves but we will soon see through their sales figures over the next year or two. If it does not sell they may have to address the rebound issue.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Brady Barrows View Post
                          Thanks Nat. That explains it. Somewhere in this thread is the clinical paper mentioned on how 25% of those treated with brimonidine had allergic reactions when treated for glaucoma. The paper is mentioned in the end notes on my Mirvaso post. It would not be surprising that a similar percentage would be allergic to Mirvaso.
                          Thanks Brady. I personally doubt the rebound flushing is due to an allergy. But who knows, you might be right. I was reading on your website and the last comment was very interesting. This person wrote, apart from a negative review: " I feel like the numbers on the drug company's website don't present a very compelling argument in favor of using it. The study they cite in their prescribing information states that they began with 1210 subjects, but that some had to drop out because of redness or flushing. They conducted the full study on a total of 833 subjects, meaning that 387 subjects dropped out of the study. It doesn't say why all of these dropouts occurred, so I wonder what percentage of those was from adverse reactions to the drug. You'll notice that they report that in the trial, 4% suffered from erythema or redness and 3% suffered from flushing. This makes it seem like a rare side effect. The dropout rate is just under 32 percent. While there may have been other factors which caused people to drop out, if we assume that all dropouts were caused by redness or flushing, this would make the total percentage of people with either redness or flushing 33.7 percent. I would love to see numbers from Galderma about how many people left the study because it was exacerbating instead of treating their problem."

                          This could be a very convenient way of Galderma to wipe the rebound side effects under the carpet of eliminated dropouts.
                          My rosacea related blog: http://scarletnat.blogspot.com/2012/...edication.html

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by hozer2k View Post
                            Jaygee later commented:


                            I was mistaken about Greengables. The comments have been very positive from him/her so that is definitely a positive. I was confusing this user with someone else, oops.
                            Thanks for the clarification. I have decided to create a new category below negative reports called, AMBIGUOUS REPORTS, and put jaygee in this category since all he said was, "So I stopped using it for awhile. Now for the last week or so I have been using the very smallest amount, like hardly any but just a little on my face. I don't get any rebound..."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by nat007 View Post
                              Thanks Brady. I personally doubt the rebound flushing is due to an allergy. But who knows, you might be right. I was reading on your website and the last comment was very interesting. This person wrote, apart from a negative review: " I feel like the numbers on the drug company's website don't present a very compelling argument in favor of using it. The study they cite in their prescribing information states that they began with 1210 subjects, but that some had to drop out because of redness or flushing. They conducted the full study on a total of 833 subjects, meaning that 387 subjects dropped out of the study. It doesn't say why all of these dropouts occurred, so I wonder what percentage of those was from adverse reactions to the drug. You'll notice that they report that in the trial, 4% suffered from erythema or redness and 3% suffered from flushing. This makes it seem like a rare side effect. The dropout rate is just under 32 percent. While there may have been other factors which caused people to drop out, if we assume that all dropouts were caused by redness or flushing, this would make the total percentage of people with either redness or flushing 33.7 percent. I would love to see numbers from Galderma about how many people left the study because it was exacerbating instead of treating their problem."

                              This could be a very convenient way of Galderma to wipe the rebound side effects under the carpet of eliminated dropouts.
                              33% would be close to the percentage in the results of the Blondeau/Rousseau paper that showed 25% had an allergic reaction. Flushing could be a side effect to an allergic reaction to brimonidine or you could call it a flushing trigger.

                              In item #6 of the drug handout on Mirvaso, it states, "Because clinical trials are conducted under widely varying conditions, adverse reaction rates observed in the clinical trials of a drug cannot be directly compared to rates in the clinical trials of another drug and may not reflect the rates observed in practice." So I think this covers them. Galderma is simply saying that what happens in a clinical trial may not be what happens in actual treatment of this drug. Galderma also clearly warns those who may use this treatment the following:

                              "A total of 276 subjects applied MIRVASO topical gel for at least one year. The most common adverse events (•> _ 4% of subjects) for the entire study were flushing (10%), erythema (8%), rosacea (5%), nasopharyngitis (5%), skin burning sensation (4%), increased intraocular pressure (4%), and headache (4%)." So here is number is 10% of the subjects who experienced the adverse event of flushing. But notice that the others percentages of some who had adverse events of erythema, rosacea (what is the difference between erythema and rosacea anyway), nasophyaryngitis, skin burning sensation, increased intraocular pressure and headache. Now how do you interpret the percentages of those who received these adverse events? Do you add all the percentages together? The main point being is that the product insert that comes with Mirvaso explains clearly that some subjects experienced adverse events. What makes anyone feel that these adverse events would not happen to them based upon these findings? It is very clear if one reads the product insert that comes with Mirvaso that one could have any of these adverse events. Galderma has covered themselves by giving warnings over and over in the product insert. What about these warnings here:

                              Patients using MIRVASO topical gel should receive the following information and instructions:
                              • This medication is to be used as directed by the physician.
                              • It is for external use only.
                              • MIRVASO topical gel should not be applied to irritated skin or open wounds.
                              • Avoid contact with the eyes and lips.
                              • Patients should wash their hands immediately after applying the medication.
                              • Some patients using MIRVASO topical gel may experience erythema or flushing.
                              • Patients should report any adverse reactions to their physician.
                              • Keep out of reach of children.


                              I particularly like the third bullet point, 'should not be applied to irritated skin.' So if you have irritated skin you should not not use Mirvaso. What part of this warning do you not understand? So if you decide to use Mirvaso for your rosacea and it gets worse or you experience flushing (see the bullet point #6) whose fault is this? Galderma? I don't think so. You have decided to accept the risks of the treatment. This is called the benefit/risk ratio which is what doctors learn in medical school. A patient ultimately must decide what the benefits and the risks of taking any treatment after being clearly explained these benefits and risks are. Ultimately the patient is responsible.

                              If you didn't read the drug insert is this Galderma's fault? You opened the package and the insert comes with it. If you would like to read the insert yourself click here.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hozer2k View Post
                                Jaygee later commented:


                                I was mistaken about Greengables. The comments have been very positive from him/her so that is definitely a positive. I was confusing this user with someone else, oops.
                                Yes the reports from Greengables do seem to stand out as being positive, amongst a sea of negative reports. Why? That is not easy to answer I don't think.
                                Get Rosacea News here - https://rosacea-support.org

                                Comment

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