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**Twickle Purple** · 16 November 2006, 09:05 PM

Hi moomy,

A few of us mix red + near infrared. For me it enhances the positive benefits I get from using just red alone. I am very pale somedays. I check the mirror a lot on those days because it's fascinating -- my eye brows and hair look so much darker! I'm hoping that novelty wears off soon enough.

Goggles are important with near-infrared. You may want to scan through some of the threads, you'll glean more info that way.

I put this in another thread recently, it will help clarify the infrared misnnomer:

--

Red (or far red in the case of 660nm) falls in the (very) narrow visible light range. Infrared (which is not red at all) is invisible to the eye. Check out the 2 illustrations below. You will see the very large range within the infrared category.

LED therapy systems that I have seen which are near infrared have wavelengths that fall into the lower end of the near infrared range.

A little bit about infrared in general.

Infrared light lies between the visible and microwave portions of the electromagnetic spectrum. Infrared light has a range of wavelengths, just like visible light has wavelengths that range from red light to violet. "Near infrared" light is closest in wavelength to visible light and "far infrared" is closer to the microwave region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The longer, far infrared wavelengths are about the size of a pin head and the shorter, near infrared ones are the size of cells, or are microscopic.

Far infrared waves are thermal. In other words, we experience this type of infrared radiation every day in the form of heat! The heat that we feel from sunlight, a fire, a radiator or a warm sidewalk is infrared. The temperature-sensitive nerve endings in our skin can detect the difference between inside body temperature and outside skin temperature.

Infrared light is even used to heat food sometimes - special lamps that emit thermal infrared waves are often used in fast food restaurants!

Shorter, near infrared waves are not hot at all - in fact you cannot even feel them. These shorter wavelengths are the ones used by your TV's remote control.

How can we "see" using the Infrared?

Since the primary source of infrared radiation is heat or thermal radiation, any object which has a temperature radiates in the infrared. Even objects that we think of as being very cold, such as an ice cube, emit infrared. When an object is not quite hot enough to radiate visible light, it will emit most of its energy in the infrared. For example, hot charcoal may not give off light but it does emit infrared radiation which we feel as heat. The warmer the object, the more infrared radiation it emits.

Humans, at normal body temperature, radiate most strongly in the infrared at a wavelength of about 10 microns. (A micron is the term commonly used in astronomy for a micrometer or one millionth of a meter.)

**moomy** · 16 November 2006, 10:01 PM

thanks twickle ...
you are a mine of information, does the fact that people are using near infrared rather than infrared mean that infrared may be dodgy..

**Twickle Purple** · 16 November 2006, 10:57 PM

Hi Moomy,

My two units which incorporate near infrared LEDs have 880nm and 950nm wavelengths. I've not come across anything higher than the 950nm. I would assume anyone mentioning Infrared LEDs for facial application is actually referencing near-infrared wavelengths (near infrared goes all the way to 3000nm), and even then likely it's a range closer to the visible red wavelengths (below 1000nm).

The unit that you are looking at is one that at least two forum members have.

I hope that helps.

Twickle Purple

**jsack214** · 16 November 2006, 11:15 PM

I use a mostly infrared system (the same one you are looking at I believe) and have seen nothing but benefits from it and zero negative side effects. obviously we all react differently but i wouldn't worry too much about it hurting rosacea skin. its very gentle.

**Artist** · 17 November 2006, 12:57 AM

I use the red/near infrared combo from acnelamp with great results so far. With near infrared you have to be careful not to let it get in your eyes. I'd even be careful to keep pets away. So, you must wear your goggles when using it and either get your significant other/cat/dog/goldfish goggles or shoo them out of the room.......he he he!

Artist

**moomy** · 17 November 2006, 07:10 AM

Hi Twicle,

do you think that because of my eye problems, i'd be better with the hand held unit??

thanks
moomy

**Twickle Purple** · 17 November 2006, 05:18 PM

Hi Moomy,

I only know that the convenience of the hand held has finally won out for me. I use them while sit in the evening and read or watch a movie, and I have another plugged in by my bed as well. They warm up so I only use them for short periods, if I need more time I just use a different head (I've got 3 heads that are the size of a deck of cards, all red, red + yellow and all yellow). I can't say if the yellow is effective or not yet because I use the other colours still.

If budget isn't a huge concern, I would purchase the one you were looking at, for deeper treatment (the near-infrared goes deeper into the dermis) and use it as recommended, and also get an all red hand-held for times when you can't, or don't want to, be captive/stationary in front of the unit. That was an issue for me after a while, I always need to be doing something... but I do still need and use my stationary unit.

The near infrared requires goggles, the red does not. The red helps my eye lid inflammation, but does not do anything for the eyeballs (never look into the light, red won't really do much damage, it's just very bright and painful on the rosacea inflammed balls). Immunosuppressant drops work for those. But the near-infrared combo works really well on my skin. My advice is: both, if you can. If not, then the original unit you were looking at is very well liked by the members that use it.

I hope that helps...
Twickle Purple

GJ · 17 November 2006, 06:54 PM

Pretty straightforward - it seems- the relationship between wavelength and depth of penetration.

Yet there is the suggestion that red light (around 660nm) confers especial benefits since the frequency matches the resonating frequency (or some such!) of cells.

That is to say that while all other wavelengths affect mere molecules (at a greater or lesser depth), red light affects both molecules and cells...

..And, the theory goes, while the manipulation of molecular function provides only limited scope for physical change, the manipulation (improvement) of cellular function is apt to cause profound structural change.

I don't know whether this is fanciful talk or not. When the results from my rigorous and painstaking experiment comes in we should know...umm not much more.

**porcorosso** · 3 December 2006, 11:00 PM

Just received my 880nm infrared mini array from the ledman (very quick and helpful, I recommend ). Any of you guys using it on your face ?

My 660nm has been very useful (Thanks Dave

) but some base redness subsists, maybe the 880 would help as it goes deeper ?

The thing that worries me is the note that came wit hthe 880nm: "It seems to increase circulation and make the body release Nitric oxide that increases blood flow in the area". That sure sounds counter productive...

**Twickle Purple** · 4 December 2006, 12:08 AM

Dr. Goldberg, lightly (no detail) answered some Q+As for the Yahoo! Rosacea Support Group.

You may find it helpful to read it all, see Source below. This bit here touches on NIR. (I won't include the question, because I don't really see that it was answered.)

Red and near-infrared LED have a major impact on many cells that cause inflammation. Basic rule is yellow LED for mild redness, red LED for more inflamed rosacea, combination of red and near-infrared for inflammation and swelling.

Source
---------

I use the Red + NIR and found the results better than when I used Red alone.

**porcorosso** · 5 December 2006, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Twickle Purple

Dr. Goldberg, lightly (no detail) answered some Q+As for the Yahoo! Rosacea Support Group.

You may find it helpful to read it all, see Source below. This bit here touches on NIR. (I won't include the question, because I don't really see that it was answered.)

Red and near-infrared LED have a major impact on many cells that cause inflammation. Basic rule is yellow LED for mild redness, red LED for more inflamed rosacea, combination of red and near-infrared for inflammation and swelling.

Source
---------

I use the Red + NIR and found the results better than when I used Red alone.

No swelling here... still worth a try now that I've shelled out another $100 ! It's so tiny I can only test on one side anyway, I hear this is the only true scientifical method too

Reading the article...

"Home units generally are not powerful enough to lead to same results as medical quality units"

I think users experiences like yours are more valuable, thanks for sharing.

**Twickle Purple** · 5 December 2006, 04:33 PM

That's cute!

I just ordered the DPL unit. I think the size and shape will come in handy. I like that the panels come away for added flexibility.

**porcorosso** · 7 December 2006, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Twickle Purple

That's cute!

I just ordered the DPL unit. I think the size and shape will come in handy. I like that the panels come away for added flexibility.

You bought another one ??? I guess you're gonna have to review it too 8)

**Twickle Purple** · 7 December 2006, 04:44 PM

And risk the deatheaters?

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