Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

SURVEY | Effectiveness of light therapy for rosacea and/or seborrheic dermatitis

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • findingaway
    replied
    Survey Results

    OK. Spent an inordinate amount of time setting up the spreadsheet, so not only can I just input new results and quickly publish the results in nice looking graphs, but also so I can cross anaylise the data. So for example, I can see if there are any corrlesations in the data (e.g. people using the unit for 25 minutes daily are getting the best results - although this is just an example and may not be true!)

    I am also not a details person, so please tell me if anything is amiss. All in all, some very positive results!

    Some notes:
    • There were more then 10 entires (which this data is based on), but some of the data was so incomplete (people not completing the AFTER section of the survey), I had to exclude the data.
    • I have set the graph to 1 numeric above the top entry (rather then uniform across the board) as this seemed to make more sense.
    • I have excluded the entries where the option 'never had' was ticked for the AFTER section. I kept this in for the BEFORE section as I though people might find it interesting, but it's not relelvant to the AFTER section.


    Right here goes, hopefully it will come out OK...it'll have to be over several posts as it won't let me post all at once...

    Survey results as at 25th January 2011:



    Leave a comment:


  • Rand627
    replied
    And yeah, definitely gonna step down on the dosage for now. I think I'm kind of overloading my skin with how close I'm using it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rand627
    replied
    So is RLT supposed to help with pore size at all? I could have sworn that before treatment the pores on my flush spots were quite large. I can't even see them anymore.

    Leave a comment:


  • GJ
    replied
    Originally posted by LisaA View Post
    Hello
    Has anyone had their RLT done at a professional clinic? I have a local laser centre that has the Omnilux professional system..I'm thinking of 10 weekly sessions. Has anyone else tried anything like this?
    As I've said before, my flushing has gone down a lot with IPL (still some redness)..but I also want to try and improve skin texture/dryness/large pores.
    Any feedback?

    Thanks
    Lisa.
    It makes a lot more sense to buy a unit for home.
    - A substantial unit will likely cost you a lot less than ten sessions.
    - You will have control over treatment parameters: duration, distance from light etc
    - The benefits from LLLT are (widely thought to be) cumulative. Use which is perhaps daily, is prolonged over many months and which is at first conservative, but later, more bold, may well lead to slow but significant gains. This treament model does/can not fit with the approach of clinics. Do not be enraptured by fancy machines. Red light is red light.

    Leave a comment:


  • findingaway
    replied
    Mistica,

    I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.

    From all the reading I have done, a too higher 'dose' (J/cm2) increases the ROS (Reactive Oxygen Species - the mechanism in which RLT works) beyond what the body can cope with and therefore, you have a negative reaction. Especially if you have rosacea and cannot cope with ROS very well anyway because your SOD (SOD counteracts ROS and is built up by long term RLT) is low.

    It's the same as someone saying that an increase in melanin (what makes you go brown) will be beneficial to your rosacea and you go out in the African sun for 3 hours everyday compared to the English afternoon sun for 30 mins each day. Of course this is more common knowledge that it would be detrimental. You tend to think that a professional saloon model would be the right way too go, but Omnilux have done trials with Rosacea that they never took forward which tells you they never worked out how to treat it. But they did work out how to treat wrinkles!

    The different results between the two examples will be dramatic and it is exactly the same with RLT. The only difference being is that RLT will not (although some research contradicts this) harm but could aggregate rosacea if not used right.

    Less is more. But hard to fathom as it seems counterintuitive.

    From the survey I have done and I'll publish some graphs this week, 90% continue to have a very positive result from RLT and the only entry that was negative was someone using a very powerful Red Light Unit very close to their skin.

    Mistica, have you tried a lower power product further away?
    Last edited by findingaway; 25 January 2011, 03:01 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mistica
    replied
    Originally posted by LisaA View Post
    Hello
    Has anyone had their RLT done at a professional clinic? I have a local laser centre that has the Omnilux professional system..I'm thinking of 10 weekly sessions. Has anyone else tried anything like this?
    As I've said before, my flushing has gone down a lot with IPL (still some redness)..but I also want to try and improve skin texture/dryness/large pores.
    Any feedback?

    Thanks
    Lisa.
    I have never had treatment with the Omnilux, but I have had an in office treatment on a different professional machine. The only relevance being, the higher power compared to hand held devices.
    I had severe flushing rosacea at the time. So bad, I was crippled by it. I guess I am not a good comparison. The first treatment was ok, but the second just about made my entire face explode, ears included and it didn't go away. I kept trying, thinking I would eventually improve, but I didn't.

    I would urge caution if you are going to try it. Perhaps try a shorter session?
    Is the machine you are considering operated with an over head lamp, or a hand held device? If it is hand held, you could ask for a test area. I was offered a test area for a couple of treatments with the omnilux at a different clinic, but I am done with RLT. It is not for me. Professional or home unit.

    Leave a comment:


  • findingaway
    replied
    Originally posted by LisaA View Post
    Hello
    Has anyone had their RLT done at a professional clinic? I have a local laser centre that has the Omnilux professional system..I'm thinking of 10 weekly sessions. Has anyone else tried anything like this?
    As I've said before, my flushing has gone down a lot with IPL (still some redness)..but I also want to try and improve skin texture/dryness/large pores.
    Any feedback?

    Thanks
    Lisa.
    Lisa, I would love to know the answer to that.

    In a nutshell, the Omnilux New-U is the same power output as the Omnilux professional saloon model, it just covers a much, much smaller area.

    Compared to what most people on the forum are using, it is off the scale. For example, an LEDman or Elixa have a power output of around 25mW/cm2.

    That is the maximum power output, but as you move the unit further away from your skin, the same power is covering a larger area.

    Think of a torch as close as you can get it to the floor. The ring of light is the same circumference as the torch. But move the torch a little away from the floor and the light now shines on a much larger area. The torch is still giving out the same power, but the power is now spread over a larger area.

    So, bringing it back to RLT. A lot of people are using their unit at around 3 inches from their face - that's a lot of bleed. Since every time you double the distance the light is covering 4x the area, at 3 inches your losing a LOT of energy. But amazingly, it still works really well for people and they get the benefit.

    Most people are also using their unit for around 15 mins (on average). So, based on 25mW/cm2 for 15 minutes, that's about 22 J/cm2 (based on having it right to your skin). Now factor is having it 3 inches away and your probably only getting a 'dose' of about 4-6 J/cm2.

    Based on everything I have read, 4 J/cm2 is the optimum 'dose' for cell rejuvenation. So it is no wonder so many people are benefiting..

    The Omnilux

    This is the staggering part...the Omnilux (both professional - Omnilux Revive/Omnilux Plus or Omnilux New-U/Clear-U) have a power output for Red (633nm) of 70mW/cm2.

    The system is held as close to your skin as possible so you are losing next to nothing in 'bleed' (although i understand the professional models can be up to 6 inches away because of how they are built...!?). All the power of the unit is going in your skin.

    So for a 20 minute session, that's a whopping 84 J/cm2. Huge compared to the 4 J/cm2 most rosaceans are getting.

    Why is there such a difference? Haven't got a clue.

    If you try it out, i'd love to know how you get on.

    How much are they charging?
    Last edited by findingaway; 24 January 2011, 10:05 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • LisaA
    replied
    Omnilux at a skin treatment centre??

    Hello
    Has anyone had their RLT done at a professional clinic? I have a local laser centre that has the Omnilux professional system..I'm thinking of 10 weekly sessions. Has anyone else tried anything like this?
    As I've said before, my flushing has gone down a lot with IPL (still some redness)..but I also want to try and improve skin texture/dryness/large pores.
    Any feedback?

    Thanks
    Lisa.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rand627
    replied
    Yeah, I'll try 2 inches on..wednesday. If my skin is feeling fine, I may leave it till thursday though. The redness does go away relatively fast but it's still there all day..just minor.

    Leave a comment:


  • findingaway
    replied
    Originally posted by Rand627 View Post
    7 minutes of red and holy dang I get flushed after these sessions. My left cheek is on fire!
    I don't like to give direction cos I don't really know what I'm talking about not being an authority on RLT and I had hardly any experience with it myself.

    But...if I were you, I'd do the following:

    1. Hold the unit 2-3 inches from your face, not on the face. (flushes cannot be good!)
    2. Start with 4 J/cm2. The LEDmans unit is 25mW/cm2, so to admisiter 4 J/cm2 at 2 inches (Inc inverse sq law) I'd say you need to use it for roughly 8 - 12 minutes. (I don't truly know how divergence/reflection/refraction relate to this equation, which is why it's to broad)
    3. Leave 48 hours between treatments
    4. Alternate between red and IR

    Good luck

    Leave a comment:


  • Rand627
    replied
    7 minutes of red and holy dang I get flushed after these sessions. My left cheek is on fire!

    Leave a comment:


  • Rand627
    replied
    Hm. Well, gonna use 7 minutes of red tomorrow and 7 of IR the next next day. See if I can tell the difference in the effect. Probs gonna get some green tea too, may as well!

    Leave a comment:


  • findingaway
    replied
    Originally posted by Rand627 View Post
    Figured as much for the green tea, just makin sure.

    And yeah, my skin has definitely gotten more red since I started this. Is it the general consensus that it gets worse before it gets better? I think I'm gonna leave my skin for another day and then do 5 minutes of red/IR tomorrow.
    Well mine did, but I think prob cos I went too quickly. Also, as I've said, I really would just stick to red or IR for each session. Don't combine. At least not in the early days.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rand627
    replied
    Figured as much for the green tea, just makin sure.

    And yeah, my skin has definitely gotten more red since I started this. Is it the general consensus that it gets worse before it gets better? I think I'm gonna leave my skin for another day and then do 5 minutes of red/IR tomorrow.

    Leave a comment:


  • findingaway
    replied
    Originally posted by LisaA View Post
    Hello
    I am new to the forum and posted last week as a newbie...while I still have redness, flushing is no longer a big issue for me (after 3 IPLs) BUT skin texture and most definitely enlarged pores are an issue. This has all happened in the last couple of months.
    So, based on the survey results I think I'll buy a RLT system. Is Omnilux the way to go? Any other suggestions? Can anyone tell me their specific experiences with pore size? I HOPE so much they will reduce again..
    Thanks
    Lisa.
    Hi Lisa,

    Good to hear the IPL cleared up a lot of the rosacea symptoms.

    In terms of whether the Omnilux is the way to go, at this stage I honestly cannot answer that. I brought it because it's the most powerful and thought it would therefore take the quickest time, i.e. if i'm to use this thing for a few nights a week, I want a device that I don't have to sit there for ages with. Having said that, from all the research i've done, it says that a less powerful unit may be better. This would be backed up by many rosaceans reporting positive results with less powerful units and ironically, the only person who had a really high powered unit, reported negative results. BUT, I am no authority on the subject, so please read through the info and make up your own mind.

    And there is such disparity between opinions that it's hard to get the right info - for example, the procedure for the Omnilux Revive (the Saloon model of the Omnilux New-U - same power, just bigger area) is 20 minutes on the area, twice per week. Which would equate to 84 J/cm2 - a far cry from the 4 J/cm2 I hear in many studies! Oh the complications!

    I am still in the experimental stages of getting the right "dose" so I am not in a position to say. Once I have a chance to go through the survey data in more detail, I can tell you what others are doing, i.e. how long, how far away.

    If you are interested in the science and why, read the bit below that I have entitled 'more info', but I would say the LEDman or another make will do you as much good as the Omnilux if used correctly.

    Regarding the rough skin texture. I quickly pulled this together from the Survey results for you. 8 people completed this section although 2 had never had rough skin texture so were excluded from the results. Hope it helps.




    More info:
    Without going into all the detail it's all about J/cm2. See the post earlier to see how you work out the J/cm2 for your unit. It starts with...

    findingaway
    8th January 2011 11:34

    Well as long as you had a good time

    I've been doing a LOT of reading on RLT and feel I have moved an inch forward. Enough, however, to adjust my "dose" accordingly - educated guess I think they call it...
    I'm still experimenting at the moment because the professors I spoke to differ in their opinion of how many J/cm2.

    4 J/cm2 seems to be the optimum for cells to heal. It takes 57 seconds to administer 4 J/cm2 with the Omnilux and this is where it gets complicated:

    ...3 J/cm2 delivered at 5 mW/cm2 and 30 J/cm2 delivered at 50 mW/cm2 both of which took 10 minutes, and 30 J/cm2 delivered at 5 mW/cm2 which took 100 minutes. The only ineffective dose regimen was 3 J/cm2 delivered at 50 mW/cm2 which took the comparatively short time of 1 minute to deliver. This observation led us to propose that the illumination time was an important parameter in some LLLT applications.
    So actually while 4 J/cm2 is the optimum, if the unit is too powerful (like the Omnilux at 55mW/cm2 for IR and 70mW/cm2 for Red), it could actually be less effective!

    Now, to complicate things even further there are a couple of other points to consider.

    1. Light follows an inverse square law, so hold it twice as far away and you will get 4 times less J/cm2. This is what I have been doing with my Omnilux. Holding it 1 inch away instead of 1/2 inch and letting it run for 4-5 minutes, administering 4 J/cm2 in that time (instead of 57 seconds) as it's further away.

    2. Skin blocks light by 90%. So if you wanted to go deeper in the dermis of the skin:

    To help tissue that is 1 cm beneath the skin, a much long application time is needed. It is very difficult to know how much light is being blocked by tissue, but 1 cm of tissue allows roughly only 10% of the light through. So 10 times as energy (Joules) is required to treat tissue that is 1 cm deep compared to tissue at the surface of the skin, or 10 x 4 = 40 J/cm^2. For a 0.03 W/cm^2 LED device, 40/0.03 = 1333 seconds = 22 minutes
    But I wouldn't worry about the no.2 as you probably don't need to go deeper then 1 cm.

    I would start with 4 J/cm2 and if it doesn't do anything, work up slowly.

    Good luck

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X