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  • Seb91
    replied
    Originally posted by beherenow View Post
    I surf a few days every week and I'm almost 90% convinced my face is less red after. Although it gets red again after I shower and remove a thick layer of sunscreen. It could also just be that the ocean is pretty cold here.
    Yeah, cold ocean mixed with a warm shower would definitely elicit a big flush and bout of redness for me as well. It seems as though after 3 or 4 days in the water surfing in a hot climate, I tan, and my rosacea symptoms (burning, redness, and sensitivity) seem to dissipate. I'm also wondering whether it could be Demodex mites and whether the saltwater kills and the sun helps kill them. I am trialling ZZ cream for my subtype 1 as we speak because my skin has got really bad recently.

    Leave a comment:


  • beherenow
    replied
    Originally posted by Seb91 View Post
    That's interesting, haven't really thought about saltwater being a direct link. Are there any threads or advice that you could give me in terms of home therapy using salt? (as won't be going surfing for a while it seems)
    I surf a few days every week and I'm almost 90% convinced my face is less red after. Although it gets red again after I shower and remove a thick layer of sunscreen. It could also just be that the ocean is pretty cold here.
    Last edited by beherenow; 23 February 2021, 11:19 PM.

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  • Seb91
    replied
    Originally posted by antwantsclear View Post
    I notice very few people who do several laser treatments end up continuing them indefinitely. At some point they cause damage and people stop - myself included. There are so many other ways to control rosacea that don't have persuasive salespeople trying to draw you in. Medicines, topicals, psychological therapies, nutrition and diet. By the way some people are convinced salt water helps their rosacea - maybe that related to the Mexico experience in the sea.
    That's interesting, haven't really thought about saltwater being a direct link. Are there any threads or advice that you could give me in terms of home therapy using salt? (as won't be going surfing for a while it seems)

    Leave a comment:


  • antwantsclear
    replied
    Originally posted by Seb91 View Post
    Darren,

    I appreciate you updating everyone on your situation, I hope it helps a lot of people. From someone who has had 15+ V Beams myself, I have made the decision to stop doing them (the last one was late in 2019). Everyone has their own experience with V Beam, but for me, it's short term success. I think that's what kept me coming back again and again. Seeing and feeling improvement, only to regress 3/4/5 months later. Whether it's caused long term sensitivity and damage, I don't know. Maybe. Last Summer I was able to go out in the sun and my skin would be okay, and this Winter, its been hypersensitivity and inflamed.

    For me, the journey to tackling the root cause is the main thing now. The redness and burning are a result of inflammation in my opinion, so it's a case of finding what the root of that inflammation is. I went to Mexico for 4 months with my girlfriend 2 years ago, a trip I was absolutely dreading because my skin was in a bad place, and I ended up being absolutely fine and having the best time, without much pain, sensitivity, and redness. Not sure why? Maybe it was because I was doing something I love (surfing), humidity, the air quality, I really don't know. But seeing my skin on that trip said to me that this isn't the result of lasers, this is a result of an environmental change.

    I would never say people shouldn't do laser treatments because I believe it's the only thing that has helped me through my tougher periods, I even was thinking about it now (I tend to think about doing it again when times are hardest), but I keep reminding myself that it CAN get better without lasers, so that's the route I am going to take.

    Keep us up to date with your progress and wishing you all the best, whatever decision you make.

    Best?
    S
    I notice very few people who do several laser treatments end up continuing them indefinitely. At some point they cause damage and people stop - myself included. There are so many other ways to control rosacea that don't have persuasive salespeople trying to draw you in. Medicines, topicals, psychological therapies, nutrition and diet. By the way some people are convinced salt water helps their rosacea - maybe that related to the Mexico experience in the sea.

    Leave a comment:


  • Seb91
    replied
    Originally posted by darren1 View Post
    Ok, so I'm replying to this thread at 15 months since my third Vbeam. The redness is still there, and by redness, I mean redness from the purpuric treatment, not redness that was on my face originally.

    The third treatment was to address some red marks on my face caused by the infamous "footprinting" effects of purpuric Vbeam as well as flushing.

    My face is now redder at baseline and the flushing is significantly worse. Three months ago, I tried two KTP sessions (532nm) with no improvement.

    I'm not consulting with another laser clinic since my regular Vbeam clinic is closed.

    I've explained how my face is worse directly as a result of my November 2019 Vbeam but the clinician will not agree with me. They are saying the redness is a progression of the disease and blah blah. I've heard that all before and I can say with 100% conviction that the redness on my face absolutely is *is* IS because of the Vbeam.

    I know blood can get trapped under the skin and this may well be because of that. The treatment was particularly aggressive and I have pictures and videos of the bruising 24 hours post-treatment.

    My face flushed badly last night because I had the heating on full, and right on cue, one side of my face flushed more than the other, in accordance with where I was treated. The surrounding skin looks normal even when I flush, but the treated areas resembled birth marks, port wine stains or just red/purple paint. It looks ridiculous and it hurts like hell.

    The clinic I'm consulting with is actually a laser training academy and the clinician who consulted with me actually has a lot of knowledge. She is not a doctor but there are doctors at the clinic and one of them will be present for my non-purpuric test patch in a few months.

    I find it hard to believe the clinician has never encountered these circumstances. She is saying it is impossible, and that I must be imagining it. I could not be more adamant to the contrary and it was difficult to control my emotions during the conversation. You'd think she was "gaslighting" me but I knew she had her convictions too. Nevertheless, she said purpuric treatment is not always necessary to be rid of the vessels and that a series of gentler treatments would be the plan.

    Their clinic also has a 940nm laser which is used with low energy similar to laser Genesis. The basline redness on my face is unmistakable in warm rooms - the flushing exaggerates it and makes it clear to see. In summer, it's less an issue but in winter with temperature extremes, it is just a constant nuisance to me.
    Darren,

    I appreciate you updating everyone on your situation, I hope it helps a lot of people. From someone who has had 15+ V Beams myself, I have made the decision to stop doing them (the last one was late in 2019). Everyone has their own experience with V Beam, but for me, it's short term success. I think that's what kept me coming back again and again. Seeing and feeling improvement, only to regress 3/4/5 months later. Whether it's caused long term sensitivity and damage, I don't know. Maybe. Last Summer I was able to go out in the sun and my skin would be okay, and this Winter, its been hypersensitivity and inflamed.

    For me, the journey to tackling the root cause is the main thing now. The redness and burning are a result of inflammation in my opinion, so it's a case of finding what the root of that inflammation is. I went to Mexico for 4 months with my girlfriend 2 years ago, a trip I was absolutely dreading because my skin was in a bad place, and I ended up being absolutely fine and having the best time, without much pain, sensitivity, and redness. Not sure why? Maybe it was because I was doing something I love (surfing), humidity, the air quality, I really don't know. But seeing my skin on that trip said to me that this isn't the result of lasers, this is a result of an environmental change.

    I would never say people shouldn't do laser treatments because I believe it's the only thing that has helped me through my tougher periods, I even was thinking about it now (I tend to think about doing it again when times are hardest), but I keep reminding myself that it CAN get better without lasers, so that's the route I am going to take.

    Keep us up to date with your progress and wishing you all the best, whatever decision you make.

    Best?
    S

    Leave a comment:


  • darren1
    replied
    Ok, so I'm replying to this thread at 15 months since my third Vbeam. The redness is still there, and by redness, I mean redness from the purpuric treatment, not redness that was on my face originally.

    The third treatment was to address some red marks on my face caused by the infamous "footprinting" effects of purpuric Vbeam as well as flushing.

    My face is now redder at baseline and the flushing is significantly worse. Three months ago, I tried two KTP sessions (532nm) with no improvement.

    I'm not consulting with another laser clinic since my regular Vbeam clinic is closed.

    I've explained how my face is worse directly as a result of my November 2019 Vbeam but the clinician will not agree with me. They are saying the redness is a progression of the disease and blah blah. I've heard that all before and I can say with 100% conviction that the redness on my face absolutely is *is* IS because of the Vbeam.

    I know blood can get trapped under the skin and this may well be because of that. The treatment was particularly aggressive and I have pictures and videos of the bruising 24 hours post-treatment.

    My face flushed badly last night because I had the heating on full, and right on cue, one side of my face flushed more than the other, in accordance with where I was treated. The surrounding skin looks normal even when I flush, but the treated areas resembled birth marks, port wine stains or just red/purple paint. It looks ridiculous and it hurts like hell.

    The clinic I'm consulting with is actually a laser training academy and the clinician who consulted with me actually has a lot of knowledge. She is not a doctor but there are doctors at the clinic and one of them will be present for my non-purpuric test patch in a few months.

    I find it hard to believe the clinician has never encountered these circumstances. She is saying it is impossible, and that I must be imagining it. I could not be more adamant to the contrary and it was difficult to control my emotions during the conversation. You'd think she was "gaslighting" me but I knew she had her convictions too. Nevertheless, she said purpuric treatment is not always necessary to be rid of the vessels and that a series of gentler treatments would be the plan.

    Their clinic also has a 940nm laser which is used with low energy similar to laser Genesis. The basline redness on my face is unmistakable in warm rooms - the flushing exaggerates it and makes it clear to see. In summer, it's less an issue but in winter with temperature extremes, it is just a constant nuisance to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brady Barrows
    replied
    Originally posted by red devil View Post
    Maybe it would have been better to have just one area treated at a time.
    It's crazy to think that we're paying people to make our conditions worse.
    Remember when you signed all those forms before you accepted the treatment? So, they have themselves covered because you accepted all the risks (for more info). The only way to do anything about this is for rosaceans to unite into a patient advocacy group in enough numbers to have a 'voice' with enough members to have any influence on the medical community. Let's say a rosacea patient advocacy group insisted on investigating 500 to 1000 VBeam treatments for rosacea and note the short term and long term benefits, as well as the short term and long term RISKS associated with those same treatments? How many of those treatments actually have benefit and how many are associated with what you are going through (or any other risks, side effects, etc)? And then, the results of this study is published in a clinical paper. Wouldn't you want to read that paper before you considered vBeam? Who would pay for such an investigation and insist that it be done? What if the manufacturer of the vBeam actually sponsored such a paper and published it? Would the clinical study show results that favored the manufacturer? What do you think? The fact is that most of the clinical studies done on rosacea are sponsored by the skin industry. More information.

    However, what if 10K rosaceans actually got together and each donated one dollar for this investigation and got an independent researcher to follow up on all those vBeam treatments? Do you think such an investigation could help other rosaceans who might consider vBeam treatment for rosacea?

    If you think that paying money to make conditions worse is crazy, what I see is that it is way more crazy for rosaceans to continue supporting a non profit organization for rosacea who spends 60% on private contractors owned by one of the businessmen who serves on the board of directors (and the entire board is made up of business professionals and dermatologists, none of whom suffer from rosacea). And what is even crazier is that rosaceans don't really want to unite to do anything about this, and also very sad. While it is good to gather together here in RF and get some information on rosacea by discussion (not to mention the thousands who discuss rosacea in the social media rosacea groups, i.e., Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc.), why is it that rosaceans can't ban together and actually influence the medical community about rosacea? It is because they are simply not united, don't want to do anything about this, and continue with the status quo medical treatment for rosacea. Sure, rosaceans will continue to try out what the pharmaceutical companies keep coming up with for rosacea and that will without a doubt continue because there is a lot of money to be made in treating rosacea, as well as new photo dynamic treatment therapies because the skin industry will continue the status quo.
    Last edited by Brady Barrows; 11 February 2021, 02:14 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • darren1
    replied
    Originally posted by red devil View Post
    Maybe it would have been better to have just one area treated at a time.
    It's crazy to think that we're paying people to make our conditions worse.
    I've said on multiple occasions the reason I got worse after treatment was because of a bad flush I had. It was contact dermatitis a few weeks after Vbeam. Was never the same after that day. Healing slowed down almost totally.

    Leave a comment:


  • red devil
    replied
    Maybe it would have been better to have just one area treated at a time.
    It's crazy to think that we're paying people to make our conditions worse.

    Leave a comment:


  • darren1
    replied
    It's almost a year from the Vbeam in 2019, and I still haven't healed. There are marks everywhere and the face is still red. It is redder than before I had the treatment.

    2 days ago, I had a full face Cutera Excel V (532nm) to try to clear up some of the marks. So far, I look no different. I'm sure I was given pretty low settings.

    I believe it would have been better if I'd be flushed beforehand, like when I had my test patch. That was somewhat effective but the actual treatment was not.

    Don't think I would dare risk it with another Vbeam though.

    Leave a comment:


  • darren1
    replied
    Originally posted by antwantsclear View Post
    Hi Darren, I think you have hit the nail on the head in what you said that the more times you have laser the more you are pushing your luck in the other thread. A lot of people who have had bad experiences with laser had it on their, third, fourth or even tenth experience - especially if they have laser or IPL with an experienced doctor. If I was you I would not have any more given your bad experience this time.
    I'm not going to be having any more laser. I do not want to push my luck. From the very beginning I was extremely suspicious about the whole idea, and I'm well aware of angiogensis. The derm who does my treatment is nonchalant about it and I've been critical to him directly because he is head of dermatology at the place that issued me with Mirvaso.

    I went into this with my eyes open. I had test patches (they worked) and then full face treatments. If I WERE to have one more treatment, it would be sub-purpuric all over.

    Leave a comment:


  • antwantsclear
    replied
    Originally posted by darren1 View Post
    I've already been on the medication, and I'm still on them.

    Also, I'm having Vbeam for lots of PIE caused my a topical medication - Mirvaso.

    The Vbeam has been successful thus far which is why I went for a third treatment. It is taking extra long to heal.

    You seem quite negative about the whole idea but then I know it didn't work out for you.
    Hi Darren, I think you have hit the nail on the head in what you said that the more times you have laser the more you are pushing your luck in the other thread. A lot of people who have had bad experiences with laser had it on their, third, fourth or even tenth experience - especially if they have laser or IPL with an experienced doctor. If I was you I would not have any more given your bad experience this time.

    Leave a comment:


  • darren1
    replied
    Originally posted by antwantsclear View Post
    The problem with Vbeam, more common than actual burns, is that it can encourage the growth of new visible veins, which can be both unsightly and potentially increase the flushing problem in rosacea. The thing that can ameliorate this redness and extra visible veins is medications - moxonodine, mirtazapine, hydroxychloroquine, gabapentin, botox etc. But then the best thing is to try these medications before laser and then people won't experience the extra problems of laser/IPL on top of their rosacea. In my experience, the organic redness of rosacea is much easier to treat than the extra redness caused by lasers or IPL. Yes, medications also come with side effects, but they do not usually do the damage to your appearance that laser and IPL can do - which presumably people with rosacea are very sensitive about should they decide to go ahead with laser/IPL. The chances of laser/IPL causing further damage to your appearance if you have rosacea are quite high - just read through the many experiences of people on this forum.
    I've already been on the medication, and I'm still on them.

    Also, I'm having Vbeam for lots of PIE caused my a topical medication - Mirvaso.

    The Vbeam has been successful thus far which is why I went for a third treatment. It is taking extra long to heal.

    You seem quite negative about the whole idea but then I know it didn't work out for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • antwantsclear
    replied
    Originally posted by darren1 View Post
    I've read this entire thread, and LBW was complaining about still being red where the laser hit three weeks post-treatment.

    Three weeks is nothing.

    Three months is more realistic.

    I'm past three months, and my face is red still, and I had a full face treatment on one side and the cheek area on the other side.

    I'm still dealing with these marks and I honestly cannot decide if they are healing (as in fading from pink to a normal colour) or if it's wishful thinking.

    This, by the way, is my also my third treatment. I did a keyword search on these forums to see if anyone else experienced this.

    I'v been using LLLT for the last week daily, to see if it helps. As I say, I cannot be certain if I'm improving, but I can say for certain I'm much better now than I was a month ago.

    About eight weeks post threatment, a moisturizer burned my face, and when it settled down, I looked worse.

    The last few nights I've been checking my skin carefully and it looks like the pinkness is changing slowly from solid faint pink (where the laser hit) to a more mottled effect with pale, normal skin showing in its place.

    If I hadto put a number on it, at this rate, I'd say it's going to be another three months to see a full resolution. There's no hyperpigmentation by the way: no PIH, just PIE.
    The problem with Vbeam, more common than actual burns, is that it can encourage the growth of new visible veins, which can be both unsightly and potentially increase the flushing problem in rosacea. The thing that can ameliorate this redness and extra visible veins is medications - moxonodine, mirtazapine, hydroxychloroquine, gabapentin, botox etc. But then the best thing is to try these medications before laser and then people won't experience the extra problems of laser/IPL on top of their rosacea. In my experience, the organic redness of rosacea is much easier to treat than the extra redness caused by lasers or IPL. Yes, medications also come with side effects, but they do not usually do the damage to your appearance that laser and IPL can do - which presumably people with rosacea are very sensitive about should they decide to go ahead with laser/IPL. The chances of laser/IPL causing further damage to your appearance if you have rosacea are quite high - just read through the many experiences of people on this forum.

    Leave a comment:


  • darren1
    replied
    I've read this entire thread, and LBW was complaining about still being red where the laser hit three weeks post-treatment.

    Three weeks is nothing.

    Three months is more realistic.

    I'm past three months, and my face is red still, and I had a full face treatment on one side and the cheek area on the other side.

    I'm still dealing with these marks and I honestly cannot decide if they are healing (as in fading from pink to a normal colour) or if it's wishful thinking.

    This, by the way, is my also my third treatment. I did a keyword search on these forums to see if anyone else experienced this.

    I'v been using LLLT for the last week daily, to see if it helps. As I say, I cannot be certain if I'm improving, but I can say for certain I'm much better now than I was a month ago.

    About eight weeks post threatment, a moisturizer burned my face, and when it settled down, I looked worse.

    The last few nights I've been checking my skin carefully and it looks like the pinkness is changing slowly from solid faint pink (where the laser hit) to a more mottled effect with pale, normal skin showing in its place.

    If I hadto put a number on it, at this rate, I'd say it's going to be another three months to see a full resolution. There's no hyperpigmentation by the way: no PIH, just PIE.

    Leave a comment:

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