Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Autoimmunity

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Autoimmunity

    Hi all,

    has anybody pondered if rosacea may be an autoimmune condition? And has anyone possibly seen an immunologist or internist and discussed this with them?

    I have an appointment with an internist next month and will see what he thinks. I will avoid mentioning rosacea as i will be there to about swollen lymph glands, shortness of breath etc,.

    However, i got to thinking that as Asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, hayfever, etc are all autoimmune diseases with inflammation as the main symptom, then would our automatic inflammation of the face also be able to be categorised as autoimmune?

    What does everyone else think about this?

    I do agree with some other opinions that there are probably numerous causes, but would this not also be a possible suspect? I don't get any papules, pustules or pimples, I have the Sir Alex Ferguson/Bill Clinton brand and think that in general my skin is good as even during puberty i never got a pimple, so i don't like to think of it as a skin condition entirely. So treating the skin all the time with often harsh drugs is probably a bit like playing the piano with a sledgehammer.

    Who's with me? Who disagrees?

  • #2
    auto

    Originally posted by steve austin View Post
    Hi all,

    has anybody pondered if rosacea may be an autoimmune condition? And has anyone possibly seen an immunologist or internist and discussed this with them?

    I have an appointment with an internist next month and will see what he thinks. I will avoid mentioning rosacea as i will be there to about swollen lymph glands, shortness of breath etc,.

    However, i got to thinking that as Asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, hayfever, etc are all autoimmune diseases with inflammation as the main symptom, then would our automatic inflammation of the face also be able to be categorised as autoimmune?

    What does everyone else think about this?

    I do agree with some other opinions that there are probably numerous causes, but would this not also be a possible suspect? I don't get any papules, pustules or pimples, I have the Sir Alex Ferguson/Bill Clinton brand and think that in general my skin is good as even during puberty i never got a pimple, so i don't like to think of it as a skin condition entirely. So treating the skin all the time with often harsh drugs is probably a bit like playing the piano with a sledgehammer.

    Who's with me? Who disagrees?
    Drums agrees to a certain extent.
    Really what you and everyone else is suffering from is improperly manufactured secreations.
    The effect of which is to cause dehydration and starvation to the final target organ.
    Not only are the secreations malformed but in so being are effectively toxic.
    This phenomenon causes the irritation and leads to inflammation.
    Unless we address this problem in my opinion it could eventually cause us to have
    a terminal disease and eventually almost certain dementia.

    Yes there is almost certain now of us having a genetic disorder that can start from birth or any age.
    I am reseaching this now and from what i have read so far rosacea cause has already been well researched albeit for a different reason its just that no one seems to have realised it yet.

    Please don't ask me my reasons for these statements its what i know to be true.
    Last edited by drums; 15 June 2008, 10:06 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Steve,

      I have been tested on several occasions for lupus, which is an autoimmune disease and each time my results showed me to be ANA negative. (Anti nuclear antibody, where the body makes antibodies to attack itself).
      Additionally, when someone has any kind of autoimmune disorder, certain markers can be detected in the body, if specific tests are done. Rheumatoid arthritis is one of these.
      If you are suffering from any kind of systemic problems, it might be a good idea to get tested.

      Over the Xmas period when my rosacea raged out of control and is STILL not under control, additional tests were done. My roascea areas had spread to my entire face, including eye lids.
      So, the old question popped up again. Was there an underlying cause?
      I had a plethora of tests, including carcinoid syndrome and mastocytosis, but again, nothing of interest was found.

      You have probably read about the discovery of a likely cause of rosacea, by Dr Gallo, involving an enzyme.
      I believe he refered to rosacea as an 'innate' immune disorder. In this context, I must admit, I am not sure what the 'innate' really means.
      Perhaps you could ask your internist to explain this and let us know?

      Good luck with your appointment and I sincerely hope you don't have asthma, as broncodilators can have a nasty side effect of making you flush.
      Previous Numerous IPL.
      Supplements: High dose Niacinamide, Vit K2, low dose Vit A. Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Mod- dose B's. Low dose zinc. Testing Quercetin.

      Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA 2%, ethyl ascorbate 2%.

      Treating for gut dysbiosis.(This is helping).
      Previous GAPS diet. Have now introduced lots of fibre.
      Fermented Foods. Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.
      Oral Colostrum. Helps reduce food reactions.

      Comment


      • #4
        Autoimmune?

        Steve,

        This is actually a very common question, I asked my current derm about it on my first visit (along with a hundred other Q's...he still sees me though!). His answer was that this view was rejected some time ago for a number of reasons not the least of which were negative ANA tests and normal sed. rate tests.

        Is there a immune system component to Rosacea? Possible, but unlikely it is a true autoimmune issue.

        p.s. I am going to go cower in the corner now while I wait for my Rosacea to kill me from...toxic secretions...sigh.
        "Get busy living or get busy dying."

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks everyone,

          its good to know that this possibilty has already been somewhat checked out by you both Mistica and J-Mill. I got my blood test back today from the GP who referred me to the internist and the lymphocyte test came back above the top range so at least I wasn't completely barking up the wrong tree.

          I will keep you informed what the internist may say or do and if there are any effects on my rosacea should he give me anything to take.

          I will let you know about any organ failure too drums ;-)

          cheers

          Steve

          Comment


          • #6
            test

            Originally posted by steve austin View Post
            Thanks everyone,

            its good to know that this possibilty has already been somewhat checked out by you both Mistica and J-Mill. I got my blood test back today from the GP who referred me to the internist and the lymphocyte test came back above the top range so at least I wasn't completely barking up the wrong tree.

            I will keep you informed what the internist may say or do and if there are any effects on my rosacea should he give me anything to take.

            I will let you know about any organ failure too drums ;-)

            cheers

            Steve
            After you have had all your tests I have no doubt that everything will come back just perfect. From reading earlier posts where people have had top to toe testing undertaken the results always seem to be perfectly normal or near enough normal.
            Nothing has ever stood out consistently abnormal enough to indicate there may be a link to rosacea.
            Although reading the tests these people have undertaken be it blood or digestive
            In my opinion at least two important tests if not three seem to be missing which could indicate the reason for rosacea being present in a person.
            I myself have just had perfect yearly results and not a mention of the three things that are wrong with me, which I know for certain are, linked to my rosacea
            What people don’t seem to realise is that physicians decide testing programs.
            Who generally in all fairness would not normally associate rosacea with a blood or digestive problem, as it is believed the cause of rosacea has not been proven. So how would they even know what to look for to enable them to make the association (as it is presumed there is no test for rosacea)?
            The general opinion from reading peoples posts are that they generally say well got my tests back everything is fine. Immediately the euphoria of wellness totally dismisses earlier concerns that they had thinking they may have something amiss with their blood or digestive. In these circumstances they seem to galvanise themselves against any suggestion between rosacea and blood or digestive because their tests came out fine.
            Yet the person through instinct still feels and remains generally unwell which contradicts the perfect tests.
            When this situation arises it adds more to the confusion as to the cause of rosacea and makes it almost impossible to connect with these people.
            Testing only proves or disproves what the physician has on his list and rosacea is not on that list so it’s probably best not to be fooled into a false sense of wellness yet.
            Last edited by drums; 16 June 2008, 09:04 PM. Reason: add ons

            Comment


            • #7
              It is true, that blood tests are not a sure proof of whether someone is well or not.
              I don't know about overseas, but here, some complicated and expensive tests can not be ordered by a GP. They can only be done by a specialist, so maybe some things do get missed?
              And let's not forget many GP's, barely know what rosacea is and for those that do, for them it is little more than a minor cosmetic problem.

              Here is an extreme example of an illness not showing up in regular blood tests.
              During the last 18 months of my father's life, he was unwell. Periodic episodes of vomiting and diarrhea.
              He had blood tests. Normal. More time went by. He developed problems in his right arm and at times he couldn't taste things as well as he once could. Then his jaw hurt.
              The list goes on.
              All the GP ever did was run the same old blood tests. They ALL came back normal. White and red cell counts were normal. (This is important as you will see). Heart and other organs were all fine.
              Fast forward, to when the dentist virtually diagnosed my father's illness and got my mother to take him to anyone, barring his usual idiotic GP.
              She took him to her eye specialist as that was the only specialist who would see them urgently.
              To cut a long story short, my father had developed an inoperable brain tumour which had spread throughout his skeleton. The slightly protruding left eye was a real give away, but that was the last symptom to appear.
              The brain and full body scans confirmed what the eye specialist had suspected with one look at my father.
              Yet, still, the blood tests remained normal, ... ( until the last 3 weeks or his life).
              It was far too late to do anything, needless to say.
              This could have been avoided if the GP had bothered to refer my father and have a specialist run additional tests.

              The above is an extreme example.

              Rosacea is different though. As has been mentioned on the forum already, many of us have been tested for so many things. Collectively that must incorporate numerous different tests.
              From memory I can only recall two or three people who have additional illnesses which only serve to fuel their rosacea.

              On a slightly different note.

              It is exciting in a way that Dr Gallo has identified the Cathelicidin/enyzme abnormality. Seeing this problem appears in a different way in those with Eczema and Psoriais, one can't help but wonder if what he is seeing is the 'cause' or the 'effect'?
              And if it is the cause, how many years down the track is it going to be before a medication becomes available?
              Soon, I hope, as like everyone else, I am so damn sick of all this.
              Realistically, I have visions of toddling down the garden path, with the assistance of my walking frame, snowy white hair all in place. Rosacea free, thanks to the long awaited cure, but too old to enjoy it!

              Steve, I hope your increased lymphocytes are the result of something simple, such as a virus and not due to something nasty. Good luck with that
              Previous Numerous IPL.
              Supplements: High dose Niacinamide, Vit K2, low dose Vit A. Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Mod- dose B's. Low dose zinc. Testing Quercetin.

              Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA 2%, ethyl ascorbate 2%.

              Treating for gut dysbiosis.(This is helping).
              Previous GAPS diet. Have now introduced lots of fibre.
              Fermented Foods. Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.
              Oral Colostrum. Helps reduce food reactions.

              Comment


              • #8
                effect

                One can't help but wonder if what he is seeing is the 'cause' or the 'effect'.

                From knowledge gained so far my opinion is he is actually seeing is the "antagonistic effect" of the results of toxic secretions.
                Meaning in our case the precursors of sebum are toxic due to improperly digested foods from which the sebum is eventually manufactured. Or it’s not in a fully utilisable substrate.

                This causes failure in the true sebum production within the pilosebaceous unit. The degree of failure will be dependent upon each individual person and will produce a slightly different outward appearance in each case.
                When the moment of failure occurs the partly preformed sebum is trapped causing irritation and the redness associated with rosacea.
                Colder climate body temperature diet genetics and lack of spicy food can help to increase this problem whereas in warmer climates and in combining spicy foods rosacea seems to be less prevalent.
                As the combination of heat and spicy improves the efficiency in the manufacture of sebum production enabling it to be fully released from the body. In doing so the possibility of antagonists is eliminated.
                It may not always be certain that failure is due in all cases to toxic secretions but failure may also arise from a failure somewhere along our computerised sebum producing program which could be genetic but never the less maybe easily corrected!
                Once the source of the failure has been pinpointed.!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just thought

                  Just thought I would point out that one of the things that differentiates Rosacea from other skin disorders is the lack of follicular involvement. That is the p&p's are not related to the location of the follicle. If follicular inflammation, by way of toxic sebum secretions (whatever that is) was part of the Rosacea puzzle one would expect to see the greatest inflammation in and around the follicle where the sebum is most plentiful and tends to pool. Instead we see the worst inflammation around the vascular areas of the face. This would be because if we know anything about Rosacea we know it is a vascular condition not some form of toxic folliculitis.

                  This is strongly supported by the efficacy of laser treatment aimed at repairing vascular deep feed vessels.
                  "Get busy living or get busy dying."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Living in a french speaking country makes you miss the odd possibly important fact.

                    I rang the doctor today to see what she thought of the results and she wants me to do some further tests of the Mononuclear antibody. So i came home and looked at the test result again and saw that for 2 of the 3 mono antibodies they tested the "valeurs normales" were <20, whereas mine were 185 and >200 respectively.

                    I'm quite chuffed actually.

                    I look forward to investigating this avenue further.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Have these additional health symptoms always been present for the duration of your 'rosacea'?
                      Or did the rosacea appear a long time ago and the shortess of breath etc is a relatively new thing?
                      Previous Numerous IPL.
                      Supplements: High dose Niacinamide, Vit K2, low dose Vit A. Moderate Dose Vit C, Iodine, Taurine, Magnesium. Mod- dose B's. Low dose zinc. Testing Quercetin.

                      Skin Care: No Cleanser, ZZ cream mixed with Niacinamide gel 4% and LMW HA 2%, ethyl ascorbate 2%.

                      Treating for gut dysbiosis.(This is helping).
                      Previous GAPS diet. Have now introduced lots of fibre.
                      Fermented Foods. Intermittent fasting -16-18 hours.
                      Oral Colostrum. Helps reduce food reactions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well that's an entangled one :-)

                        The swollen lymph nodes on my neck came at about the onset of puberty as did the rosacea. The other symptoms i've only had for 5 months (including the further swelling of the glands).

                        There may or may not be any connection but since the doctors usually dismissed the swollen glands when they weren't causing a problem, this new turn of events and the discomfort, which has motivated me to keep at them, has led to some investigation and in my opinion, some vindication.

                        We will see if further testing throws up any other notable results, plus the Internist still to come.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Interesting discussion. I have been tested in the hospital by an internist for all the possible auto-immune diseases and nothing came out wrong.
                          But I do belief that there are many causes for the blood vessels to get inflamened with rosacea patients. Not just as a reaction to heath or alcohol, but also to foods and toxins. When I enter the workplace of my friend who is an artist and paints, I only have to inhale a little bit of the paint fumes to have a face like I have been sunburned for 2 days. So this means to me that my body recognises it as a toxin and my blood vessels react straight away. It just causes inflammation in my opinion. The same with an endless list of triggers.

                          I also think that my body at least does react like with an auto-immune disease extremely to normal substances, showing in my face. But why this happens I don't know.. Neither does any derm I have seen so far, unfortunately
                          My rosacea related blog: http://scarletnat.blogspot.com/2012/...edication.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            just a quick update,

                            i had my appointment with the internist today and he re-iterated what the GP said. Swollen glands probably from a previous infection, high antibody count (from test results) also indicating an old infection. He felt the glands on my neck and then finished with the suggestion that sometimes these things are mental.

                            Gotta love those doctors......

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I went to a GP a couple of months ago and I asked him to take all the tests he can and he did and everything came back normal. I got a list of all the things they checked and it was quite a long list. I was checked for auto-immune diseases, liver problems and yeah.. they took all the regular blood tests.

                              I asked the doctor if he really checked everything since I'm an anxious person and he said that they could take more tests but that would be expensive and only something they do if they feel it's really needed. So I took pretty much all the "normal/standard" tests you can take and everything came back normal...

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X